Knights Cross Preliminary Award Document

[tgn]

Hey,
got this interesting PM with some good thoughts on the documents:

Hi Tom -

I can tell you that you do not want either of those documents. IMO, both are wrong...

RK Doc - Signature is a big give away, only Schmundt, Linnarz, and Burgdorf were signing during this timeperiod. The stamp is not like any original I've encountered on originals (note the one asterix instead of two between words), and the unit designation is wrong...SS-Pz.Gr.Rgt. 26 was not named 'Hitlerjugend', the division was!

DK Doc - Erich Olboeter was with Aufklaerungs Abt. 1 with the LAH at Kharkov at this time, AA 9 which would eventually belong to Hohenstaufen I don't believe had even been formed yet in Mar.'43. Again, the stamp is unlike any I've ever encountered on a original DK doc.

Suprised other RK/DK urkunde collectors have not commented on these points.

The poster wished to stay anonomous, but his comments make sense, or???

Tom

[peter u]

Hello Tom,

His comments make a lot of sense, just what I said from the start of this thread.
- The citations don't look normal!
- The signature????
- The stamp???
- No provenance!
- No rk document collector wants it for a 4000$.

Now make up your own mind.
I think that I know what you are going to do anyway.

Succes,

Peter

PS: I can't help you with the research because the reference-books you need for that are not in my collection.
But this is perhaps a task you should do yourself, you can learn a lot while doing it.

[markus]

HJ KC doc

Very interesting thread I must say. At last something for a document collector like me.

As a price guideline:

I think Otto Baum's KC prelim. KC doc was sold by K. Winkler 2 years ago at EUR 7,000 or 8,000.

I purchased the formal "Teddy" Wisch (LAH) GC in Gold doc approx. 3 years ago for EUR 7,500.00

The Wisch OL prelim sold for approx. EUR. 15,000.00


USD 4,000 for an "HJ"-Panzer-beauty like this would be too good to be true and there is sufficient bying power out there for these kinds of docs to pay much more and still turning your money as a trader.

Just some thoughts in terms of pricing, but of course the other points of originality are much more important.

[peter u]

Thank Marcus,

For that repley

P

[spectre]

Can't sleep because of this d@mn cold and I just came across this.

I am the owner of the DK doc. Markus, you are comparing apples to oranges here. You describe docs of very well known GENERALS to an obscure major, who only has one known photo to exist as far as I have seen in the last 30 years of published books. Of course their docs are going to go for 2, 3, 4x as much, they have 20 times the name recognition and this one is damaged on top of that!!

I showed this to many big dealers at the SOS for the last two years, all who handled it in person, liked it. The reason I still have it is they would not give me enough for it or had nothing I wanted in trade. Yes, it did come from Manions 20 years ago in the mail order days. Like a bonehead, I threw away all the old catalogs of theirs I had when I moved out to CO. If you really want to dig, look thru actions 96 to about 103, you would find it somewhere in those, there was not a picture of it.

As for the unit being AA9, I don't know. There are a lot of gaps in this guys record. Yes that unit barely existed in March '43 and maybe its something as simple as a typo, there is one on that line already. You would think they would try to get things right on big awards but its still just a prelim and maybe Hans the REMF typist had a bad day. Hell, I have award certificates from when I was in the Army in the early '80s and they spelled my name wrong on one of those, it happens.

When I saw the RK doc with the same tear, that was too much. Fate, karma, things like that have to happen for some reason. If Tom has seen RK docs with the type this way, that sounds good to me. I'm a badge guy and am simply trying to move this along as my interests have changed too.

I can't believe some forger would go to all the trouble to make these up so long ago, get units blatantly wrong when even then he could have gotten a lot closer to being right (he did good with the RK), ripped them both up and then stuck that cheap a$$ cellophane tape on them that made such a mess and right there cut there value in half and then split them up??? Anybody want to take a stab at that one?

Good night, Alan

[peter u]

Hello Alan,

Markus is not comparing oranges to apples.
Rk preliminary award documents for ss panzer units specially those for campagnes in the west like Normandy for example are very rare and sought after and they w'll claim a high estimate that is a wellknown fact, it doesn't matter if they are for the general, a battalion commander or a feldwebel.
But their is one thing that is for sure that the people that are willing to spend that amount of money; that they want to be 200% sure that the document is authentic, who can blame them if that amounts of money are on the line.
That it came from Manions twenty years ago is not enough evidence/provenance to fill the anomalies with that RK award document imo.
But no problem if you like the document buy it and enjoy and it seems that you found other collector/dealers that are convinced also, that is even better for you.
Like I said so many times before it is not me that needs to be convinced I'am not a candidate new owner for that document. With 4000$ there is still some extra profit in it but I still don't wanted it.

Cheers,
Peter

[Simon O.]

Handling an item is never a substitute for researching the person when that person is researchable and Olboeter most certainly is as he was a member of a couple of the most well documented units of the entire German armed forces. In this case we're especially spoilt because there's published information on him to be had in the English language.

We've seen examples here before of dealers and long time respected collectors pronouncing a named researchable item good based purely on the items condition and construction yet completely ignoring the career of the person named.

The last 20 years or so has seen a massive rise in published reference works, it was far easier to get away with bad unit names, names, sigs and dates back then than it is now.

On the 1.Feb.43 Kradsch******252;tzen-Rgt. SS-Pz.Gren-Div.9 was raised with 2 abteilungen. It was only re-organised into SS-Pz.A.A.9 in Aug.43

Olboeter is listed as commander of the 5 (schwere) Kp of A.A. LSSAH in Jan '43 and again for Feb\March 43. (In Lehmann's series on the LSSAH). In 'Die Deutschen Divisionen' by Schmitz, Thies et.al he's listed as being awarded the DK on the 21.3.43 as commander of that company (i know the award date is given as the 30.3 in other sources). He definitely moved on to another assignment around March '43 or a little later as he drops of the scope of the LSSAH after that time. Perhaps he was transferred to the forming Hohenstaufen but certainly the 9 is not a typo for 1 because A.A.LSSAH didn't get numbered until much later in 1943.
I find it hard to accept such a balls up from OKH. ie. to go from Kp.Chef 5./A.A. "LSSAH" to SS-Aufkl******228;rungs Abteilung 9. However if it can be shown that he did indeed get transferred to Hohenstaufen around the spring of '43 then that would definitely explain things. Or did he go straight to HJ when it formed in July '43???

[edit] Looking further at Vol.III of Lehmann's work on the Liebstandarte the transfer of personnel from the LAH to the newly forming HJ includes a detailed list of officers that left between the end of March and the end of June. On page 195 we have the following entry for the A.A. "Abteilung commander Obersturmbannf******252;hrer Kurt Meyer, the entire 1 Kompanie, Kompaniechef Olboeter"


Back to the RK doc. Whatever the case the doc has been falsified. The stamp and rank refers to a Generalleutnant of the HPA, the person signing this was not. That would be fine with the correct alterations but there are none here, therefore we have someone purporting to be something which he is not. ie. a falsification of an official and high level award document.
As has been pointed out, the unit title is also incorrect. The inconsistencies are starting to mount up on both docs and together they set the alarm bells ringing. That's before we even start looking at things like stamps etc.

We have several SS research specialists here and it's dissapointing none of them have voiced an opinion. Mark Yerger for example should definitely see these.

[Simon O.]

who only has one known photo to exist as far as I have seen in the last 30 years of published books

You can't have looked too far then, there's one in 'Their honor was loyalty' and another in 'Blood and Honor: The history of the 12th SS panzer division 'Hitler Youth'. And i'm not even interested in the man nor in particular the SS.


Another little tip. Search for his name over on the Axis history forum and you'll be able to fill out his career, find photos of him and read up on the case of a rape and suicide of a junior officer under him.

I can't believe some forger would go to all the trouble to make these up so long ago, get units blatantly wrong when even then he could have gotten a lot closer to being right (he did good with the RK), ripped them both up and then stuck that cheap a$$ cellophane tape on them that made such a mess and right there cut there value in half and then split them up??? Anybody want to take a stab at that one?

Make them up when reference works were thin on the ground? If you can't do the research easily it makes it very easy to make something that looks good. Who's to say it was the person who made them that ripped them? How about a former owner finds out they're bogus, goes to rip them in two, furious about being had, then stops realising that he could recoup some of his losses by moving them on.

[peter u]

Hello,

Simon is talking sense here!
I'am not longer actively collecting these items, my reference-books are not longer in my library, I have changed them for the books that I need for my new intrest.
But ss panzer is not that difficult to research imo a lot has been written about SSLAH, Hohenstaufen, SS pz div hitlerjugend, the rk winners of the ss,...etc.
On this forum I can just give my opinion (gut feeling that you get after a while when you have collected these items) but a lot of the research has to be done by you guys yourself, it is not that difficult.
And if you are thinking of spending thousends of dollars/euro's on militaria items you better be prepaired to spent some money on reference-books also they can save you a lot of money in the future, and give you easy accesable in hands reach information.
Speaking from my own expierence if I was thinking about buying such documents, I did as much research about it as I could possible before I bought them even without the help of internet (can you imagine).
Succes with collecting.

Cheers,
Peter

[spectre]

You can't have looked too far then, there's one in 'Their honor was loyalty' and another in 'Blood and Honor: The history of the 12th SS panzer division 'Hitler Youth'. And i'm not even interested in the man nor in particular the SS.

He's not in the first edition I have. And since I have no interest in going further into the ss, I'm certainly not going around buying more books on them when I'm trying to get rid of the ones I have left.

I did see that info on him once before in the other forum, the same picture that Angolia had in one edition of cloth insignia of the ss, that I had and sold and can't remember which number.

The only other thing left for me here is the observation that Peter seems obsessed with the Normandy campaign and everything else fades to insignificance when a generals documents are worth the same as any lower ranking or common soldier, whatever.

Alan

[peter u]

Alan,

To explain myself a bit a language that is not my native one, if you have a RK awarded to a low rank for example a feldwebel or a gefreiter it means that he has done some individual heroic act considered brave enough to be awarded with the highest award possible. For a general or other high ranking officers they are usually awared the RK for actions there troops preformed under there leadership.
That is the difference, and I hope that you understand that the German ww2 award system is not the same as for example the English system with the VC.
Not to forget that RK were also sometimes just awarded for propaganda reasons, take for example Witzig he was not present during the first (and most important) attacks on the fort of Eben-Emael, he landed several hours later when the fort artillerie was allready out of action, there goal for that operation. Nevertheless he was awarded the RK, it even came in with a radio message that day. His RK was allready approaved before the operation was completed! The German HQ had no idea that he was not even with the first wave that landed on the fort. What was the brave action that Egon Delica did on the fort? Who can answer that question? Perhaps his only merit was being the only officer present with the first wave? I don't know.

Also if you have a ss rk award document for a low rank in the "west", that is always going to be more valuable than one for a high rank in the east, believe me. And I'am not more intrested in the Normandy campagne as for the "west-feldzug" for example, I don't collect these items anymore all my rk related documents are allready sold several years ago, but I didn't sell my knowledege and commen-sense together with the documents.
And if you don't want to believe the expierences/facts from past or present collectors and/or reference-books that is also fine for me, no worries.
Just make your own logic, buy everything that the other collectors don't want and start believing that you found bargains, new standards, new unit citations, new generals that signe rk award documents,...etc; and be happy with your crap!

But again it is a fact that you can find more information about waractions in the west or from ss panzer units, fj-units and fighter pilots than from wehrmacht units on the easternfront. And let it be clear that I don't consider their actions (in the east) as less brave.
This is just collectors market behavior.

Perhaps a small hint for future collectors, a little bit of research doesn't harm.
But if you want to believe your own fantasies, that is also allright for me, go crazy!

Peter

[Simon O.]

He's not in the first edition I have. And since I have no interest in going further into the ss, I'm certainly not going around buying more books on them when I'm trying to get rid of the ones I have left.

I did see that info on him once before in the other forum, the same picture that Angolia had in one edition of cloth insignia of the ss, that I had and sold and can't remember which number.

The only other thing left for me here is the observation that Peter seems obsessed with the Normandy campaign and everything else fades to insignificance when a generals documents are worth the same as any lower ranking or common soldier, whatever.

Alan

Then if you haven't put much effort into it don't come out with statements such as

who only has one known photo to exist as far as I have seen in the last 30 years of published books

and

There are a lot of gaps in this guys record

He may seem obscure to someone who doesn't collect docs or is much into research and history but compared to virtually any Heer Major RK, DKiG holder he's a superstar thanks to the popularity of the W-SS and in particular those W-SS units that fought against the Western allies.

Of course documents to him are not going to fetch the same sums as the likes of Baum and Wisch, but not far off. Their value has less to do with rank rather more to do with how well known the individual was, his unit and where he got his awards. For example, should Barkmann's or Woll's documents ever come up on the market i'm quite sure they'd fetch more than 'generals' like Wisch and Baum.
The tears whilst affecting value for sure shouldn't have as big an impact as halving it. That's because the docs are still complete but more importantly they're unique. Unlike the medals themselves, which are annonimous and from which you can pick and choose from many, award documents are unique to an individual so condition has less effect on price. If you were to say 'nah, i'll pass and wait until another Normandy, HJ RK prelim doc turns up' then you're going to wait a long time.
For us docs collectors it's mostly the man, unit and actions behind the doc that give it it's value, not how pretty it looks.

[peter u]

Spot on Simon ,

The preliminary rk award documents I have seen in the past were all printed on very flimsy paper, much worse quality than for example an EK2 award document.
Their condition was sometimes terrible but it didn't detract from their value or intrest, if they were ofcours not to badly denazified.
Collectors pay for the story behind the award.
Usualy the more you can find about his action or the more it appeals to the people the more valuable.
Collectors prefer ss panzer above wh panzer, fighter pilot is more intresting than a bomber pilot, actions in the west before eastern front,...etc.
These are facts you have to consider while valuating a rk related document.
Ofcours personal interst is the best barometer, you have to like it not other collectors, that is always the most important reason to buy such an item.
Also I have never found a sb or an award document of a low rank (soldier or corporal) that I could add to my collection either.
For me they are the best because there is no other way that they have would earned their award than by an individual action done by themselfs it is like they would have won a VC for example. The only disadvantage is if you find for example a whermacht infanterie soldier that won a rk on the eastern front that his individual action is most probabily not listed in the reference-books.

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob V.]

According to the Scheibert list of German Cross winners published by Podzun-Pallas several years ago Olboeter won his award as a member of 5./AA LSSAH on 21. 3. 1943. With the resource material available I've never understood why people making these things up often don't get the units right. In the early 90s I was offered several GCG documents that looked like the one here. Same faint OKH & Keitel signature stamps & all to SS officers. I remember mailing photocopies to several other collectors & getting a "no way" response from everyone.

I briefly saw the Knight's Cross document in question at the SOS Show last month. I didn't like it at first glance & like it even less now. After collecting these documents for over 30 years I thought should recognize the signature of anyone signing a document like this. The aging didn't look right. The stamp was too fresh, the ink on the signature was too fresh & the tear/repair looked too clean. Someone pointed out the problem with the unit designation, which I should have spotted at once, but didn't. I don't collect personality or SS award documents anymore because they have been faked so well for so long. There are still period typewriters & even some blank documents floating around. My thought anymore is phony till proven otherwise. Anyone spending thousands of dollars on these pieces should examine them carefully, fact check & know what they're looking at.

[peter u]

Well said Bob,

Provenance is very important with such items.
You can't be carefull enough, if it turns out being wrong you lost a lot of money it is not like buying any other low award document.
There is a lot of information about these items specially when they are ss panzer, the basic research is not that difficult for these ones.
Ofcours genuine documents are available but it might take you a while to find one. Future collectors of these documents need to have patients and a lot of knowledge.
But gathering the much needed knowledge is great fun

Cheers,
Peter