Knights Cross Preliminary Award Document

[peter u]

Hello,

Perhaps a sillly question, but has he been awarded the RK? Is the story true?
I' don't have the ss-rk reference book in my library.
But for someone that has it in his privat library it is easy to look up.

The leaflet pages seems to have a DK im gold decoration above it, is this not the list for the soldiers that got the DK im gold at that time?

So many questions.
Tom, did you do any research on this officer?

P

[Simon O.]

Who in the world is supposed to have signed this? I thought Burgdorf was doing all the signing at OKH around this time, for SS too. I haven't seen too many preliminary RK docs but i've not seen that sig though it does look somewhat similar to Kastner's, the LW Generalleutnant
(though i'm not saying it's him for a second).

Peter

Yes, the name, unit and date of award are correct.

[tgn]

I really do appreciate all the input on this document. I, too am totally bewildered with the signature.

Yes the Ehrenblatt shows him winning the German Cross, and someone has noted the dates of his winning the RK and his death.

Keep those comments coming. All are welcome - postive or negative. Inquiring minds want to know...Tom

[lion909]

Not Kastner's signature. I am sure.

[peter u]

Hello Tom,

Did you buy this document as being an original?
And paid accordingly?
Or was it a bargain?
If it was a bargain, you should start to get worried, you have to remember that any collector on this planet knows that such a document, if real, is very expencieve!
Normally I don't claim if an item is expencieve that is automatically real.
But with rk items it is usually a good sign, all the so called bargains I have seen were fakes.

Cheers,
Peter

[peter u]

Hello Tom,

Let it be clear that I don't want to know how much you paid for it, absolutly not.
I'am not the type of person that wants to know what someone else paid for their items; I can decide for myself what is something worth.

P

[tgn]

Hey guys, I sent photos of the document to a German dealer friend that has had a lot of expience with Knights Crosses and documents. His reply:

"Hi Tom,
yes, I remember the document.
Yes, there were mostly specific signers of these documents for Airforce, Navy and Army. But here we are talking about late SS! That is a different story.
Right now I don't now this signer. I might have an answer after the coming up Stuttgart show (March 22 to 25, 2007).

So far still I like this document regardless of other opinions.
It has all tracks of originality I was looking for.
I explained it to the guy in detail at the SOS show why."

Peter, I do not own the document. I took it on approval as somehting to either keep or help sell. The asking price for the two pieces is $4K, so I don't think it was being sold as a bargain.

I have gotten opinions both way on this, but I tend to think it is good at this point. Time will tell, or course....Tom

[Bob V.]

A few things bother me about this piece. I have never seen that signature on a Knight's Cross or any other document, the stamp looks entirely too fresh & why weren't the type written letters affected by the damage to the paper. There are too many concerns with this one.

[tgn]

Why would the typewritten letters be affected by a tear? And the stain is coming through from the back, not the front. Stamps on documents are a crap shoot. Sometimes they are very dark and clear. Other times they are barely legible. All depeneds on how "inked" the stamp was and how much pressure was applied. Signature still bothers me, too...Tom

[peter u]

Hello Tom,

4k is a bargain price for a ss-panzer (Normandy) rk award document.
About 5 or 6 years ago I paid much more for a similar fallschirmjäger rk document, and I sold it also very easely again after having it for about 2 years without a loss.
So think about it.
My valuation for this one if you have to buy it from a dealer with some provenance between 5000 - 7500 euro , believe me you not going to find it for +/- 3000 euro that is perhaps the price for a wehrmacht-easternfront document.

Cheers,
Peter

[tgn]

Interesting update to this topic. Based on the exposure of the the preliminary knights cross document, the German Cross award document to this same recipient has come to light in the hands or another collector. This document looks original to me, and notice how it is torn is the same place and same way as the knights cross document. This can not be a coincidence. Does this make the KC document more believeable, or do you think the GC document is also questionable?
Tom

[peter u]

Hello Tom,

What does the owner of the German cross award document think about the preliminary rk award document?
Does he want to buy it for 4000$ to compleet his set?

Like I said on so many postings in different threads on this forum, it is not the forummembers or me that needs to be convinced of an items authenticty it is you the new owner that needs to be sure.
We can only give oure opinion on an item and thats it.
If you think that rk award document is real buy it, believe me 4000$ is only 3000€ you are never gone find an award document of that caliber for that prices with a dealer or a collector that knows his material.

But ask yourself the question is their provenance with that document.
What is the provenance of the German cross document and does it help you to find provenace with the rk document.
When where does documents sold before?
In which collection where they before?
When and why where they split up?
All questions I wanted to be answered before I w'll buy it.
But as said before I'am not the client for that item. It is you!
You need to be sure, if you care about not having a financiel hang over.


An extra question to ask yourself:
How many pm's did you get to buy that document from you? How many current collectors of those documents are also intrested in that rk document?

Cheers,
Peter

[Simon O.]

Looks like both docs were together at one time, that for sure.

You really have to find out who signed that RK doc. It's not an unknown nobody, i thought possibly Rudolf Schmundt but his sig is quite different and he'd been promoted full General a week prior to this doc anyway.

[tgn]

Peter,
very thoughful comments.

The GC document was purchased 20 years ago in a Manion's auction. Remember, back then Manion's still had mostly real things, not like today. How the set was sparated I am still looking into.

And Simon, you asked the million dollar question: "WHO SIGNED THIS DOCUMENT?" Until that is identified and authenticated, I too am stifled. I just thought the GC document added more mystery and intrique to the story...Tom

[Simon O.]

It's not Viktor Linnarz either, the only other Generalleutnant with the Heeres personalamt in Aug 44.