Knights Cross Preliminary Award Document

[tgn]

I was thinking about listing this on estand, but want to make sure it is good first. Any comments????
Any idea on who signed it??? Tom

[Gesetz]

Why are the commas and periods so much darker than the rest of the typing?

[tgn]

That is just a lighting effect when taking the photo. Looking at it in hand, the periods and commas are no darker than the rest of the type. But what about the document? Any thoughts, comments, opinions on its originality? Any who signed this??

This document also came with a honor list showing Knights Cross winners and German Cross winners where Olboeter is listed as receiving the German Cross...Tom

Some more photos:

[tgn]

3.

[tgn]

4.

[tgn]

5.

[Leroy]

The "base" document looks OK. Just out of curiosity, why isn't the "SS" on the document in runic form?

[CWP]

Is it normal for such a document to be stamped by the OKH Heeres Personalamt?

[peter u]

Hello,

The citations of his unit and rank look very strange to me.
To be honest I don't like this document.
Are there other examples of ss provisional RK documents that look like this example?
But I like to hear other opinions also, before I cast my deciding opinion.

Cheers,
Peter

[peter u]

Hello,

This is the letter-type used for example on deutsch kreuz award documents.
Personaly I have never seen this letter-type being used on vorlaüfiges besitzzeugnis for an RK.
Ofcours it is not because I have not seen it that it is not possible.
Are there forummember that have RK vorlaüfiges bezitzzeugnis documents with this letter-type in their collection or have seen it in the past?

Tgn,

What is the provenance for this document?
-How far can we trace it back in time? When did it come from the family & who where the dealers that sold this document before?
And in which collections has it been?

Cheers,
Peter

[tgn]

Check Foreman's Guide on Award Documents. You will see several examples with this type of print. In fact, that is one of the favorable features of it. Is there someone with better experience on these preliminary documents out there???

No good provenance on this. Just came from another collector who changed his interests...Tom

[peter u]

Hello Tom,

I had several of this jokers in my collection some years ago.
And all the ones I have seen and did hold in my hands before (about 20 or so I think) all looked different from the one you did post on this thread.
Like I said before if I have not seen the lettertype before it doesn't mean it doesn't excists. I'am prudent with my judgement on that subject-matter.
Mine were all with normal typewriter letters.
Also mine examples all had provenance from the collections they where in before and I knew the dealers who bought them from the families who owned them in the first place.
For me that was very important information when I bought such expencieve pieces.
Because you started this thread it means you have some doubts about originality also.
Do you honestly think that the citations on this document are real?
Did you buy this probabily expencieve document without any provenance or knowledge about it?
Did you just use only the "formans guide" to make the decision on originality, because it lists documents that look similar like yours?
I think the documents that are used in reference-books don't have such anomalies like your documents has.
If so please post them to proof me wrong.
Did they just forget to mention ss on every document or is this just a typing mistake, according to "formans guide"?

It is odd looking to me, you probabily allready found out that from my postings. I just made up my mind.
Now lets see what others think.
And even better see if you can find a new owner for your document.
Such documents are very desirable pieces, everyone knows that.
If the collectors of this type of document see this posting and they are convinced that is real; the probabily allready made you an offer.
They are not going to go in a debat on this forum, they just want it. I know the feeling, like I said I used to collect this documents.
So I also know the collectors who buy these documents also and I know how they react when a ss-panzer rk document comes for sale on the open market.
How long would it be for sale on the site of Detlev Niemann? 1 hour? 1 day? 1 week? No offers at all perhaps?
Believe me an original ss rk award document for a ss panzer division from the caliber of the "hitler jugend" is extremly rare.
Many pm's on this one to buy it for the price of an authentic one?
When I sold mine I didn't need to post it on the internet, they found new owners quite easly, perhaps because they looked like normal rk documents with no anomalies.
Succes with your document, and I honestly hope that it is found to be original by the forummoderators. So that you can sell it with a clear conscience.

Cheers,

Peter

[peter u]

Hello Tom,

The proof of the puding is going to be in the eating.
The people who collect such expencieve documents don't need the waf forummembers opinion, they can decide for themselfs what is good and what is not and what they want to spend their money one and what not.
Believe me when they find that it is good, you gone have a winner!!!
Nice profit in sight for you.
Otherwise......


Cheers,
Peter

[tgn]

Peter,
why so defensive??? I respect your opinion, but you seemed kind or vague in your earlier posts. You made it seem like you really had not seen many such documents. I merely put of feelers for others that had. I wasn't trying to insult you, just get other opinions.

I have no ides if this is real or not. It looks good when you handle it. It has a very old tape repair that has stained the document. The name and unit checks out. The typing is from a typewriter that a faker would not likely have available. There are other examples like this shown in refenerce books. That is about as far as I could take it without outside help.

And yes, I posted it because I am not sure. I also do not own it, so whatever the verdict is of no consequence to me.

But in any case, please don't take offense. My comments were not meant that way. I respect all opinions on this forum, and accept or reject them as the situation warrants...Tom

[peter u]

Hello Tom,

No offence!!!

I'am always very prudent with RK documents that don't look 100% authentic and/or don't have good provenance.
They are so expencieve. I never did want to gamble this amounts of money on such documents.
It is always easy to give your (anonimus) opinion on a internet forum when your money is not on the line.
When you have to decide to buy an RK document of this caliber, it is something else.
You want to be 100% sure not to loose these amounts of money.
Like I said before if the collectors that pay top money for this documents give you a good offer, you can be sure it is authentic.
Otherwise....
Please understand that I just want to give my personal opinion and debat about this document.
It is perhaps sounds strange to you; but since that I quited collecting these documents it makes debating about it easier for me.
Before I never made any public statement about such an item.
I just wanted to keep my knowledge to myself.
Selfdefence!
The less other people know about these documents the less competition.
Egocentric reaction? Sure!
Perhaps normal? I think so. It was my reaction that is a fact. Was it the right reaction? I don't know, but I doubt it.

Again succes with your document.

Peter