Real rare Find!!!!

[Buckeru]

Hello

Here is my fleamarket find from today!! Something like this is really hard to find!Good luck for me, I bought it for 20 euro! I think the seller did******180;n******180;t know what it was!

See the "J" on the kennkarte! The yellow pass is for the man which allowes him to use a tramway as jews man!!! crazy!!

The 2 blue and the red document are from the police that the man took as second firstname "Israel" and the women (his wife and daughter) the second firstname "Sara".I don******180;t know if thi was a rule?

The other papers say that the state tooks him something away and so on!

I think that this is a great peace of history and that it was extreme what people did to other ones due to a different religion!

All comments are welcome, if someone knows more about this firstname thing,please post it!


cheers Buckeru

[Hank C.]

Whoa! Now that's a nice little non-military group. Congrats on it.

best
Hank

[peter u]

Hello Buckeru,

Perhaps these items do no have a big financial value, but their historic one is through the roof.
Holocaust museums all over the world dream of such items.

It was normaly forbidden for Jews to use public transport.

I think this family history group does not have a happy ending.
Some research needs to be done to find out were the holocaust did end for them. But if they survived the belonged to a very small group, because I don't think many Jews from Wien survived the war!

Congratulations with your fleamarket find.
Peter

[Tim DC]

Peter-Buckeru, these certainly have a considerable financial value. Probably a couple of hundred EUR. There's a market for Holocaust items and they're hard to find.

I've only seen two Jewish Kennkarten before on the militaria market (not that I'm actively looking for them). In one of them the middle name "Israel" was added as well. This was done by the German government to make it easier to identify them as a Jew.

Nice find!

[milcollector]

very, very lucky, and for 20 Euro !!!

wow !

[Richard]

What I find amazing is that these documents were issued in 1943. To be Jewish in Germany and not in any type of detention, I have to wonder if this family had some type of connections that may have kept them out of a concentration camp or ghetto. A very interesting piece of history and it would be an interesting project for research to see what might have finally become of them though the outlook would probably be bleak. Nice find for 20 Euros. An enormously intriguing part of a dark history.
Richard V

[Buckeru]

Hello everybody

I am asking myself the same question what Richard said!

How did this man handle it to stay in vienna, do not become inprisoned in an concentration camp???

What was specially on him!?? Can anyone read his occupation?? Something like "Oberla......... in Ruhestand"

He also was allowed to use the tramway!! that was enormous in this days for an jewish one!

I researched a little bit about the names, and I found something! Has anyone an idea where I can find more information?!


The mans name on the kennkarte was:

+ Friedrich Israel Grün born 02.09.1887
found nothing

About the names on the red and blue papers I found them in a victims List:all 3 were sent to the concetration camp "Wien/Theresienstadt" and the list says that they survived

+ Emanuel Julius Feuerstein born 13.09.1890 in Stanislav
Holocaust victim-->
Feuerstein Julius 13.09.1890 Wien/Theresienstadt * 01.10.1942
Name date of birth Camp date of deportation



+ Elisabeth Feuerstein born 05.08.1914 in Lindenburg-->
Holocaust victim-->
Feuerstein Elisabeth 05.09.1914 Wien/Theresienstadt * 01.10.1942
Name date of birth Camp date of deportation



+ Francia Feuerstein born 24.05.1894 in Stanislav-->
Holocaust victim-->
Feuerstein Francia 24.05.1894 Wien/Theresienstadt * 01.10.1942
Name date of birth Camp date of deportation




Buckeru

[peter u]

Hello Buckeru,

I don't know when the last Jews from Vienna were deported, that is something to research.
But the nazi deportation system was quite clever there was always a group that thought they were the ones that were left not to be deported.
This type of documents was always used by the nazi's to make the remaining Jews believe they were the ones not being deported.

Are the persons of your documents 100% jews or are they maybe only 25% jew this makes a huge difference also.

Perhaps he was a member of the local Jewish council, they were also the last ones to be deported.
Or did he have a function helping his fellow partners in distress to be deported.

This is not an easy quest, but a very rewarding one Buckeru.

Good luck and a happy research time;

Peter

[Buckeru]

Hello

We found his occupation out, he was "Oberlandesgerichtsrat in Ruhestand" that means he was a judge!

Could that be the reason, could he have such good friends in high positions who help the man?


Cheers Buckeru

[JOHN JONES]

Hello Buckeru,
A very historical find, and certainly worthy of more research.
I am currently reading, KRISTALLNACHT prelude to destruction ( M. Gilbert )
it states ' New law declared on 17th August 1938.

As from January 1st 1939, all Jews who were German subjects must add a
2nd name, Israel for men, Sarah for women. This applied to all documents,
so as tim said, this identified persons even if names and looks appeared
'Germanic'

Could be he was married to full German / Austrian stock, as this helped
Victor klemperer ( I SHALL BEAR WITNESS / TO THE BITTER END ) avoid
deportation till the days before the destruction of Dresden.

A sad reminder of how low nations can sink, and still within living memorey.

CHEERS,
John.

[Hank C.]

...edit...

Could be he was married to full German / Austrian stock, as this helped
Victor klemperer ( I SHALL BEAR WITNESS / TO THE BITTER END ) avoid
deportation till the days before the destruction of Dresden.

...edit...

CHEERS,
John.

That's what I was thinking, as I had read those books.

best
Hank

[PZIV]

Great find Buckeru

[Napalm]

Please let us get to the bottom of this and answer the questions that we all want answered...

[Ken B.]

Fascinating
What a great find

[peter u]

Hello Buckeru,

What I can see from the photo's you made from the documents, is that the last issue date on the yellow document is October 1943. Because it is valid for one year doesn't mean that he has been able to use it also!
He is a high educated person and as a former judge the chance that he belonged to the local jewish counsel is great. This was always the last group to be deported.
One thing is sure he did not went underground before October 1943, and what I can see from the documents is that he is 100% Jew.
The chance that he an his family could avoid deportation no matter their connections was almost impossible, so considering his age their chances of surviving the holocaust are very slim!
But ofcours anything is possible, further research will teach you their fate.

Peter