question on Value of documents

[usmedalman]

I have a panzer captain's tunic, hat, medals and document group that I have had for ten years. I am a dagger collector and would like to get an idea of the value of this entire group as a trade item. I was told that signatures on documents can make them more collectable. Thanks to the internet, I discovered some great information about the documents in this group.

There is a WMC2c w/s document signed by Knights Cross winner Maj.Gen. Walter Neumann-Silkow on 4July41 while this soldier was in North Africa. Neumann-Silkow was KIA on 9Dec41.

The West Wall certificate is signed by Knights Cross winner Oberstleutnant
Erich Geissler. Geissler finished the war as a Major General.

There is also a promotion document and an army service medal document that are both signed by Walther Leuze, one as a Major and the other as a Oberstleutnant. He finished the war as a Major General and also earned the DKiS.

Does anyone have an idea of how much extra, having documents signed by Knights Cross winners verses "regular" officers would add to the group?

Thanks in advance for you help.
John

[Hank C.]

Hi John,
Well, lots of KC winners signed docs. Combat docs are more "desirable" for most, unless the ones you have are harder to find variations, or for a highly desired unit.
For the Schutzwall, WMC 2nd, promotion, and service docs, without pics, I'm going to guess-timate in the 100 to 125 dollar price range. Condition is of course important (torn, frayed, hole-punched, stained, etc.) as well as the style & unit.
Hope that helps a little,
Hank

[usmedalman]

Hi John,
Well, lots of KC winners signed docs. Combat docs are more "desirable" for most, unless the ones you have are harder to find variations, or for a highly desired unit.
For the Schutzwall, WMC 2nd, promotion, and service docs, without pics, I'm going to guess-timate in the 100 to 125 dollar price range. Condition is of course important (torn, frayed, hole-punched, stained, etc.) as well as the style & unit.
Hope that helps a little,
Hank

Thanks Hank, that is at least a start. With the exception of being hole punched, the docs are in exceptional condition and all are for Panzer-Jaeger Abteilung 33 and 38.

John

[Panzer Rob]

Hi John,
Well, lots of KC winners signed docs. Combat docs are more "desirable" for most, unless the ones you have are harder to find variations, or for a highly desired unit.
For the Schutzwall, WMC 2nd, promotion, and service docs, without pics, I'm going to guess-timate in the 100 to 125 dollar price range. Condition is of course important (torn, frayed, hole-punched, stained, etc.) as well as the style & unit.
Hope that helps a little,
Hank

There are a couple of different variations for a number of award documents, including the KVK, but even without seeing pictures I'd have to say that Hank's assessment is right on the money.

Rob

[Simon O.]

I wouldn't really agree about hole punches affecting price. Unless they intrude on to the information on the document i don't see why they should. Unit, signatures, awardee, date and for what the medal was awarded are more important factors. That the guy was an officer and that the docs are still together also adds to their attractiveness.

In this case you have an Afrika related grouping which immediately makes it more desriable and of interest to Afrika or DAK collectors.
The Afrika collectors might also know how scarce and desirable the Neumann-Silkow signature is.

[Luftm40]

In my opinion, condition (to include hole punches) has very little to do w/ the value of documents. Documents are one of a kind, attributed items. There is only this one set in existence. Unless they are in tatters, condition is almost irrelevant as there would be no way to"upgrade". Just my opinion...

[max history]

In my opinion, condition (to include hole punches) has very little to do w/ the value of documents. Documents are one of a kind, attributed items. There is only this one set in existence. Unless they are in tatters, condition is almost irrelevant as there would be no way to"upgrade". Just my opinion...

I'm afraid the market disagrees with you.
Condition is an important facet with a large number of documents as the majority are "anonymous" i.e. the recipient has no claim to fame. It is only where there is something special about the document that condition is considered not so important.
I agree with Simon's point regarding punch holes. However, there are a number of collectors who prefer their purchases not to have any holes. Nearly all autograph and document dealers (incl. auction houses) provide a condition guide and most mention punch holes if they are present.
Max.

[Luftm40]

I guess my comments were directed more at the specific question in the thread. In the case of a complete group like this one, being overly fussy about the condition of the documents is missing the point IMO. It wouldn't significantly affect what I was willing to pay, unless they were in horrible condition.

[milcollector]

estimate

sorry guys, your estimates are way too low.
The war merit 2c doc from Afrika with Neumann Silkow sig is worth approx 150-200 Euro on its own. The unit is also very nice - panzerjaeger abt. 33 of 15th panzer division.
As long as it measures up and is genuine then that price will be achieved fairly easily if you sell in the right place.
I will only speak for the afrika document, as that is where my speciality has been for a number of years.

As for the punch holes, in my eyes that is only a bonus. Award citations are so damn easy and widely faked, that anything that adds authenticity is a bonus.
There must be a very large proportion of "rare" citations in peoples collections that were made up over the last 10 years.

[Hank C.]

sorry guys, your estimates are way too low.
The war merit 2c doc from Afrika with Neumann Silkow sig is worth approx 150-200 Euro on its own. The unit is also very nice - panzerjaeger abt. 33 of 15th panzer division....

(edit)....

As for the punch holes, in my eyes that is only a bonus. Award citations are so damn easy and widely faked, that anything that adds authenticity is a bonus.

With all respect, I won't question your quote on the prices, but will about the hole punches. I guarantee I can punch 2 holes in a doc any day, that's no guarantee at all of originality.

One other thing I don't think we touched on is whether or not the documents are hand-signed, or stamped. That would make a difference too, to the discerning document collector.

best,
Hank

[Erich B.]

Not to beat a dead horse, but if it's a decent document or document grouping, I don't see that holes or no holes punched makes a difference. As Andy said, each document is unique. They were often filed in binders often that required holes to be punched. I would not pass on a document that I wanted because it had file holes.
Erich