Propadanda Posters

[Michael Fay]

SS art exhibit dates

Thanks Tony!
This is how the poster looks, almost.
In hand it showed itself to be a very wafer thin sheet of paper glued/adhered onto a type of very thick cardboard or type of very thin plywood, with the marbled looking backing also appearing to be same type of very thin sheet of paper.
Black light tested showed no flourescence-for what that is worth.

in pure conjecture, I suspect these are less seen as they would have been taken down after the dates of the exhibition, in a real sense it had an expiration date, whearas the standard SS recruitment poster was without an expiration date for the duration of conflicts. So these SS art exhibit posters were not required to be kept up , nor would any other person putting up a new poster have been worried of getting in trouble tearing down an expired poster to make room-even if it was SS.
But just my theory till further information is gathered.

[TonyS]

I've only ever seen one of these. Seeing it was for an exhibition I would guess it would not have as large a printing as a general recruiting poster.

As for conservation - you would have to get the conservator to examine the backing board and see if he thinks it's original to the poster. If it is you would obviously want to leave it alone.

[Michael Fay]

I've only ever seen one of these. Seeing it was for an exhibition I would guess it would not have as large a printing as a general recruiting poster.

As for conservation - you would have to get the conservator to examine the backing board and see if he thinks it's original to the poster. If it is you would obviously want to leave it alone.

Yes, in total agreement on conservation...
My own preference is to never mess with paper-i.e. if there is a rip ,the rip stays...problematic issues may arise from the stabilization of a wierd glue and who knows what type of glue and plywood chips combination. Some wood is worse for paper than others I believe...not even mentioning the glue...if the glue is old fashioned bone glue, then no problems except it is food for bugs like silverfish and roaches--they eat the glue out of old book spines.

And that is a good point: smaller production runs for only the geographic areas where the exhibit was showing.

[TonyS]

Yes, in total agreement on conservation...
My own preference is to never mess with paper-i.e. if there is a rip ,the rip stays...problematic issues may arise from the stabilization of a wierd glue and who knows what type of glue and plywood chips combination. Some wood is worse for paper than others I believe...not even mentioning the glue...if the glue is old fashioned bone glue, then no problems except it is food for bugs like silverfish and roaches--they eat the glue out of old book spines.

And that is a good point: smaller production runs for only the geographic areas where the exhibit was showing.

Hmmm.....I think we differ a bit there. My preference is to have posters linen backed and de-acified so they are preserved and don't deteriorate further. It also improves the appearance of the poster and I prefer to have holes and rips repaired.

Have a look at this one that was falling apart and was being eaten away by the acid in the paper.

[Michael Fay]

I have no problem with linen backing, I have not ever done it yet as I only have a few posters. And I only found someplace where I can physically go and see the actual process lately. It is a little bit intense.

For interim "stabilization" without altering the pieces at all i put them in acid free large art protection mylar bags and back them with acid and lignin free card stock backing cut to size-enclosed with comic book deacidification inserts and sealed with acid free tape-the beauty of which is , it is relatively safe and nothing is altered at the present.
However, it is not very presentable, or photogenic. But safe.

Without getting into the philosophical debates inherent in conservation (we have an invaluable place on WAF for that) I still would have not had your poster's colors changed/touched up but would have the linen backing done. That is just me. I dont really want what I would term "restoration" as opposed to conservation/ stabilization.
I am sure we will always disagree on that.

As for this SS Art exhibit poster, though, what am i going to do? I dont think having a linen backing is even applicable as this is a very thick 3 piece composite already(meaning it cant be rolled up or bent). I am thinking about looking into the deacidification process to be done by a conservator, at least...if they agree it is the correct thing to do.
Especially because of the possible glues involved which is kind of an unknown factor still--we both can see the acidification that is effecting the poster from the photo you posted for us.
Will be happy to hear any suggestions on this issue.

[TonyS]

The color is not changed on purpose - it is a result of the de-acidation process and removes the brown stain(s) the acid creates.

It brings it back closer to the original color of the poster but not all of that brown color can always be removed. I have at least one poster that was very badly "browned" in some areas and it is still pretty obvious, but at least now it is stabilised.

It's a bit like a restorer cleaning an oil painting - when they remove all the dirt and grime you can see how much brighter the original colors appear.

[Michael Fay]

By having "colors changed/touched up" I meant (for instance)The right S in the Schutzstaffel insignia looks like it had what looks like the scuffs/scratches in it touched up . But if im wrong ,and it is only from the flash or from the deacidification process, then I am wrong .
When I went to the poster conservation/restoration work shop(a real eye-opener) they were really proud about how they could touch up the old posters graphic damage with paint touch ups.And is what most poster owners are apparently paying them to do.
-Michael

[Thorsten B.]

Tony and Michael,

They are original - and rare!

[TonyS]

By having "colors changed/touched up" I meant (for instance)The right S in the Schutzstaffel insignia looks like it had what looks like the scuffs/scratches in it touched up . But if im wrong ,and it is only from the flash or from the deacidification process, then I am wrong .
When I went to the poster conservation/restoration work shop(a real eye-opener) they were really proud about how they could touch up the old posters graphic damage with paint touch ups.And is what most poster owners are apparently paying them to do.
-Michael

Michael - my answer to that is not the same as if you asked me about restoring an SS tunic with insignia it never had.

These posters are pieces of art and I see no harm in having pin holes filled in or scratches touched up. So yes that poster has had those scratches touched up. But it has also increased the value of the poster to probably twice or more than what I paid for it.

It's the same with rare antique books, paintings, cars, even tanks (look at the Littlefield tank collection) where restoration back to its original form is not frowned upon and in fact quite the opposite.

Yes it is an eye opener going into a poster restorer's workshop. Some of the things they do I found to be eye opening as well, which is really an understatement.

I've seen a lot of times on the Antiques Roadshow the painting experts telling people with damaged paintings - dirt, paint flaking off, crazing, scratches, holes punched through the canvas, water stains, the wrong frame for the period etc etc - to have it restored and see its value increase dramatically by thousands (sometimes tens of thousands) of dollars or Pounds.

If you feel like you need to leave those pieces you own in a damaged state I don't have a problem with it.

[TonyS]

Excuse my ignorance but who is Kirstin John-Stucke?

[patrick h]

A nice poster from the dutch Winterhulp Nederland organisation:

[Michael Fay]

Michael - my answer to that is not the same as if you asked me about restoring an SS tunic with insignia it never had.

These posters are pieces of art and I see no harm in having pin holes filled in or scratches touched up. So yes that poster has had those scratches touched up. But it has also increased the value of the poster to probably twice or more than what I paid for it.

It's the same with rare antique books, paintings, cars, even tanks (look at the Littlefield tank collection) where restoration back to its original form is not frowned upon and in fact quite the opposite.

Yes it is an eye opener going into a poster restorer's workshop. Some of the things they do I found to be eye opening as well, which is really an understatement.

I've seen a lot of times on the Antiques Roadshow the painting experts telling people with damaged paintings - dirt, paint flaking off, crazing, scratches, holes punched through the canvas, water stains, the wrong frame for the period etc etc - to have it restored and see its value increase dramatically by thousands (sometimes tens of thousands) of dollars or Pounds.

If you feel like you need to leave those pieces you own in a damaged state I don't have a problem with it.

Yep,
way I see it, I want to know what is the original look. As long as I can get the future destruction from acidification and whatever else mitigated, then that is all I will opt for.
I started collecting as a kid, coins, stamps, comics and books. I have always disagreed with any of the trends to restore(meaning doing the full repair of rips and touch up art, etc of comics). In fact, it is controversial in some quarters of the comic world.
After all, one can always have more done later, but one cant get it back to its original state once it is given full treatment.

A cucumber can always become a pickle
but a pickle cannot become a cucumber

[Michael Fay]

Excuse my ignorance but who is Kirstin John-Stucke?

Just someone who graciously helped me out once with a very bad situation on WAF and did not have to.