Numbered Panzer Document.....Help

[Mark Bakker]

Hello,

I would like to have some opinions on this numbered panzer document.
Can anybody tell me if this doc is authentic or not? And is it possible to get some more information about Leutnant Heer and the Hauptmann who signed it? Thanks!

[Mark Bakker]

#2

[Hank C.]

Are there any other documents to this group? Or is this a lone document?

Hank

[Simon O.]

Hopefully some of the panzer experts will be able to give a better opinion.
I compared this one to the two shown in Forman's book on award docs, both to EL winner Johannes Bölter and the stamp is completely different.

I read the signature as Weiss? Was there an officer by that name with the unit at the time?

[Denis]

Hello
I agree with Simon, the stamp on the Bölter doc is completely different (ans is simlilar to the Carius' one, who both were awarded the PKA m E while serving with Schw. Pz. Abt. 502).
Nevertheless, I have found another doc, the PKA m Einsatzzahl (IV. Stufe) bestowed to Albert Kerscher and which bears exactly the same rubber stamp than the one displayed on the Alfons Heer document above.
The signature on the Kerscher doc is exactly the same than the Bölter and the Carius ones (a Hptm. ans Abteilungskommandeur), which seems to indicate that the Kerscher doc is OK, although it doesn't bear the same rubber stamp.
The Kerscher doc can be seen on Christian Federl's "Die RKT der Panzertruppe".
Regards
Denis

[Mark Bakker]

Hello guys,

thanks for your reply. The document shown above is not part of a group, so it makes it a bit more difficult for research. I have searched this forum for other documents of the same unit and found the ones of Carius and Kerscher. It seems that Kerscher's doc bears exactly the same stamp, like Denis noted before, and it is dated two weeks before Alfons Heer's document.
I think it is good to find out if there was indeed a Hauptmann "Weiss" in the unit at that moment, but were can I research it?

[Simon O.]

So in mid february the abteilung is referred to by it's new number of 511 with the 502 stamp, which makes sense (i guess ordering new stamps wasn't exactly priority number one at the time). Using the wrong number for the unit (and remember this would have been typed up by a clerk with the abteilung who would have been using the new 511 daily since January) is defintely a black mark against it. Finding out if this Hptm. Weiss existed i think is key.

[Mark Bakker]

Simon,

this is not the first time that I see that the unit keeps using '502' instead of '511'. I found this old thread here on the forum:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&highlight=502

[Denis]

Hello
Mark has retrieved a very interesting information. Have a look on the thread he has provided on thread #3 where the same rubber stamp can be seen.
Regarding Weiss and his identififcation, I.V. means "In Vertretung" (i.e on behalf of) indicating that the Abteilungskommandeur hasn't signed the doc but somebody else (maybe a clerk or his deputy). So I guess it will be very difficult to have more details about this Weiss. We are even not sure that this Weiss was a Hptm. (this rank might be the one of the Abteilungskomandeur). Weiss in theory should have mentionned his own rank.
Anyway, I personnaly think this doc is OK.
Regards
Denis

[Simon O.]

Sorry Denis but clerks do not sign award docs like this and no way would someone sign the doc as a hauptmann when he wasn't. If you look at the doc signed just 2 weeks previously you'll see the inclusion of the signing officer's appointment as it should be, in this case Ferdinand von Foerster (and i understand he was still CO in March). Also note that he was a hauptmann, if you look at the SB linked to you'll note the entries signed by a Leutnant as kompanie chef and i know the other kompanien were being led by officers of that rank or oberleutnant.

To say the doc is good when you've no idea who the signing officer was or if he even exited is i think just a little too trusting. Had it been an eastfront doc or kvkII it wouldn't be so important but we're talking about a very rare doc to a very 'sexy' unit and that means being a little more careful.

[Mark Bakker]

I want to bring back this old thread because i have found some interesting information which proves that there was indeed a Hauptmann Weiss with the "schwere Panzer Abt. 502".
In the German Militaria Magazin of July-August 2003 there was an article about the soldbuch of Johannes Bölter, who served with this panzer-unit.
The signature of Weiss, who was then an Oberleutnant, is located twice in this soldbuch.

Leutnant Heer is mentioned in Wolfgang Schneider's book "Tigers in Combat I" on page 90:
"8 april 1945, a small Tiger group (Leutnant Heer with 4 tanks) counterattacks from the Kleiner Galgenberg to the Grosser Galgenberg (Small to Large "Gallows Hill)".
At that moment the unit had a total of 10 Tiger tanks left.

First the document again, because the older pics were deleted.....

[Mark Bakker]

The signature of Weiss in Bölters soldbuch, under the Deutsches Kreuz in Gold entry.

[Mark Bakker]

and one more....

[Simon O.]

Good work Mark, this is why research is key when it comes to paperwork.