Panzer-Pionier Bataillon 36?

[TWS]

I purchased this document 24 years ago and never gave it any further critical thought after examining it at the time. Recently I was going through a binder and came across it again. I tried to look up the unit on Lexikon (and even Google) and discovered that at least on Lexikon, no Panzer-Pionier Bataillon 36 is listed. 36. Infanterie-Division did motorize (and later de-motorize if I recall correctly) but I found no indication that any of their units were ever issued SPW's. I am wondering if during their motorization the Pionier Bataillon received engineer halftracks... or possibly just the 2. Kompanie?

I do not suspect the document is a fake and I doubt it's a typo. There was a Panzer-Pionier Bataillon 38 (and 37) but I think the clerk or at least Pionier Stransky would have caught the mistake. I know when I was in the Army if one of my award documents contained a typo I would have noticed and brought it to the attention of the S-1 section.

I know it could be a real "in the weeds" question but if anyone knows of the unit ever having the designation of Panzer-Pionier, I would appreciate it.
Thanks!

[Stickfigure21]

Very interesting.... the 38th Pionier Battalion was with the 2nd Panzer Division but like you said I’ve never heard of a Pionier Battalion 36. Maybe the 8 key on the typewriter was broken [emoji16]


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[Stickfigure21]

This might be if interest, not sure if you saw it.

https://www.axishistory.com/books/15...terie-division



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[TWS]

Very interesting.... the 38th Pionier Battalion was with the 2nd Panzer Division but like you said I’ve never heard of a Pionier Battalion 36. Maybe the 8 key on the typewriter was broken [emoji16]


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The emphasis here is on whether the unit was ever "gepanzert" (armored). Pi. Btl. 36 very much existed. I've just never heard of them designated as a Panzer-Pionier unit - aside from this award document. It could have been a temporary designation or it could be a I have a hopped up document. However, I have handled a lot of the basic award docs and this one does not seem to be questionable in any other way beyond my inability to confirm the "Panz." designation on it - and the fact that usually it was just typed as "Pz." That's one detail that is unusual although I don't believe it's unheard of.

[Admiraal]

I cannot find anything close to that date, but here is the Gliederung of the Bataillon on 1 April 1943.
It was fully motorized with a Staff, 3 Company's and a supply column. But it was not (partly) mechanized/gepanzert at this date.
The footnote of the document states that the Pi.Btl. personal was on foot, so i assume this Gliederung was the "allowed" strength.

[TWS]

Hello Admiraal. Thank-you very much for taking a look. Yeah, the documents are nearly 6 months apart but the one you posted is still very interesting.

[Archi]

Hello !

The Gliederung in summer 1942 (and in 1941) was the same as the one posted by Rick.
(except that in 1941 there was also a Brücken-Kolonne, which became Heerestruppe later on)

I could find no hint, that this Pi.-Btl. 36 had any gepanzerte Kp. at any time from 1941-1943.
(this should also apply to all other ID. (mot) during that time frame, but I haven't checked.
If someone knows more, that would be interesting !)

So somehow there must be some mistake. (and from what I noticed, hospitals are well known for using somehow
"incorrect" unit designations, that cause confusion. That would also explain the Panz., which should not happen in a field unit).

I could imagine two different scenarios :
a) the clerk misinterpreted 2. Pi-Btl. (mot) 36 (which should be the correct designation), into a Pz.Pi-Btl. 36
b) It could also be, that in the SB the unit number was a badly written 8, where which was then misread as a 6.

To me, b) seems more likely, but of course this is all guesswork. Are there no other docs to this soldier ?

Best regards,

Archi

[TWS]

Hi Archi,

Thanks a ton for joining my thread and taking a look into this.

Unfortunately I have just this one document to the soldier.

Now that I think about it further I am more open to the hospital typist making a mistake and possibly one that the soldier didn't care enough about to try and get a corrected copy. He could have been just too happy to have survived his wounding and looking forward to some convalescent leave. As you pointed out, if it was a unit issued document (like an assault badge or EKII, etc.) the clerk filling out the award document would have known they were making a typo and corrected it. Also if it was unit-issued there would be a commander signature that could possibly be researched to try and pinpoint the unit. But since it was a wound badge and (as typical) issued by the military hospital and signed by the chief doctor I don't have that angle to pursue.

[Archi]

Hello Todd !

There is one additional point I would like to mention :
I see the logic in your argument, that he might have noticed the wrong unit designation and could have asked
someone to correct it.

However, in this case his rank is still only "Pionier".
If I remember correctly, a soldier who had finished his training, after 6 months of service
(and after 2 month serving with a field unit) should have been promoted to Oberpionier (Oberkanonier etc. ...).

So, I would think that he was probably only a very short while with the Pi.Btl. before he was wounded.
Therefore, the exact unit designation might not be that important to him and as you pointed out,
he was probably just happy that he survived, could leave the hospital and probably got some leave.

Of course, without further docs, we can make only assumptions.

Best regards,

Archi

[echoe]

pz pi.

todd. there is (or used to be) a pionier museum near munich. i can't find it online. i visited it when i was there. i also can't recall the actual name of the collector from the northwest who was dubbed "mr. panzer pionier" by another collector. i would ask "schulterklappen" here on the waf.

[TWS]

todd. there is (or used to be) a pionier museum near munich. i can't find it online. i visited it when i was there. i also can't recall the actual name of the collector from the northwest who was dubbed "mr. panzer pionier" by another collector. i would ask "schulterklappen" here on the waf.

Thanks. You may be referring to Steve Androsko as he has that nickname. I do not know him but we do have a good friend in common. I may hit up that friend for his contact info. Thanks again.

[Stickfigure21]

todd. there is (or used to be) a pionier museum near munich. i can't find it online. i visited it when i was there. i also can't recall the actual name of the collector from the northwest who was dubbed "mr. panzer pionier" by another collector. i would ask "schulterklappen" here on the waf.

A Pionier museum you say? Would love to get more Info in that!


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[echoe]

pionier

i couldn't find the bloody thing on line.