30 i.d paris

[tistou48]

Hi guys,

I would like to clear something confused in my mind.
In 1940, Otto von stülpnagel was Oberkommando des Heeres and was Stadtkommandant von Paris right?
Was he as well the kommandant of the 30 Infanterie Division ? Where was the Kommandantur by that time?

Thx to all for your help!

[markus]

Hi guys,

I would like to clear something confused in my mind.
In 1940, Otto von stülpnagel was Oberkommando des Heeres and was Stadtkommandant von Paris right?
Was he as well the kommandant of the 30 Infanterie Division ? Where was the Kommandantur by that time?

Thx to all for your help!

The Divisionskommandeuer der 30. Infanterie Division was General der Infanterie Kurt von Briesen (RK, KIA Nov. 20, 1941) at the time.

Best,
Markus

[tistou48]

#3

Thx Markus.
So what was his role in Paris as the commandant of the 30 I.D? Kommandant der stadt Paris? When did he leave?
Was he the one that replaced von vollard-bockelberg?

[Archi]

Hello tistou48 !

It might be helpful, if you could clarify your question a little bit and provide some context.

Here is the bio of Otto von Stülpnagel :
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...nagelOttov.htm
He became Militärbefehlshaber Frankreich in Okt. 1940 (before that, he was
Befehlhaber in WK XVII).

Is your question about him about, 30. Inf.Div. in Paris or a possible Kommandant von Paris
(the last one might have been General d. Art. von Vollard-Bockelberg
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...ergAlfredv.htm

who was on 1.8.40 replaced by Gen.Lt. Schaumburg.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...mburgErnst.htm
For all 3, I do not see any connection to 30. ID.
Therefore the question, what exactly you are looking for ?!

Best regards,

Archi

[tistou48]

#5

Hey Archi, thank you for your interest.
Question is did Schaumburg succeeded to Von Vollart-Bockelberg directly as Kommandant von Gross-Paris?
What was the role of Kurt von Briesen in Paris? Why was he at the head of the parade in avenue foch the 16th of june? Who was his superior? where was his quartier?
who speidel was the attaché of?


lots of questions...

[Archi]

Hello tistou48 !

Lots of questions, but that is no problem and now it has become much more clear !

I can answer only the 1st question :
Yes, Gen.Lt. Schaumburg followed directly on 1.8.1940. At least that is written in his Lexikon bio and it is
also confirmed by a book : Umbreit, Der Militärbefehlshaber in Frankreich 1940-1944 (from MGFA).
This last source should be really reliable.
However, now that I read it once again, things are a little more complicated regarding the different designations,
you mentioned. I'll add the passage in a scan to explain.

My understanding of that :
Militärbefehlshaber Paris : until 1.8.1940 Bockelberg
Kommandant von Paris : since 1.8.1940 Schaumburg
(I am not sure however, if the designation changed on the 1.8.40 or at some other time).
On 1.3.1941, this HQ was redesignated "Kommandant von Gross-Paris".
But you will need to find a real expert on this, to understand all the details.

I have no books on the 30. Inf.Div. or info on the other questions, but I'm sure some of the colleagues will.

Best regards,

Archi

[tistou48]

#7

The problem is that in the book of August von Kageneck, he talks about Url Von Briesen as the kommandant von Paris.
In the Lexikon der wehrmacht , von briesen is name General the day he starts is duty as occupying Paris.
Then in Kageneck's book, spider, arriving in the afternoon of the 14th of june is waiting is superior, the Militarbefehlshaber von Paris, who has not been named yet..
In the same time, von Studnitz, commandant of the 87 I.D , HQ at crillon, is taking care of the city while Von Vollart is named the 17th as the first Kommandant of stadt Paris..

My final question is Who is taking care of what between 14th and October in Paris.

[tistou48]

specialist wanted

Hey,
Nobody is able to help??
Amy question is why Von Küchler gave Von Briesen the privilege to review his troops ( 30I.D) on the 16th of June 1940 avenue Foch??
Why wasn't it the 87 division who had the right?
Why was it the 9th I.D that walked through place de la Concorde the 14th??

Thx everyone

[H.W Plainview]

hi

from Axis Forum

[tistou48]

paris

Hey H.W.Plainview,
Thx for your help.
However in Von Kageneck's book, it is the 187th battalion from the 87th i.d of Von Studnitz that enter the first in Paris.
The 9th indeed was parading on the 14th of july on place de la concorde.
The big victory parade never happened i know, so how long the 30th division of Von Briesen stayed in Paris?

[Archi]

Hello tistou48 !

I think H.W. Plainview found a very good link , and from what I read, that info by user JC might simply be correct !
As you seem not to be completely convinced, I'll add some info, that makes the picture perhaps more clear.
There is also some additional info on the Kommandant of Paris.
[I tried to reorganize your questions for more clarity]

===========

A.1) Sequence of events regarding the occupation of Paris, mid June 1940:
19.) Why was it the 9th I.D that walked through place de la Concorde the 14th??
20.) However in Von Kageneck's book, it is the 187th battalion from the 87th i.d of Von Studnitz that enter the first in Paris.
21.) The 9th indeed was parading on the 14th of july on place de la concorde.

A.2) Privilege
17.) my question is why Von Küchler gave Von Briesen the privilege to review his troops ( 30I.D)
on the 16th of June 1940 avenue Foch??
18.) Why wasn't it the 87 division who had the right?

In June 1940, HQ 18. Armee was held in reserve and committed from midnight 12.6.40 onward. It was inserted between 4. and 6. Armee.
Assigned to it were : VIII. A.K. (8. and 28. ID.) and XXXX. A.K. (9., 87., 30.ID, 44. ID).
The operational idea was, that 4. Armee should bypass Paris on the West and 6. Armee on the East. The task of
18. Armee would be to guard the inner flanks of both armies and occupy Paris, its southern suburbs and advance through it.

Late on the 13.6.40, Paris had been declared an open city. The first German troops entered the city around 9:00 a.m. on 14.6.
(which units exactly, I do not know, but it all fits with the info from JC, see also first set of scans.).

VIII. AK. and 9. ID were advancing through and beyond Paris quickly. 87. ID. was the first to occupy major parts
of the city and stayed there. The 30. ID was still behind all these movements and arrived only by the 16.6.40.

If you ask : WHY did all these units march through Paris in this sequence ?
I have added some excerpts from KTB Halder (Chief of Staff of Army). In short, they show that the Fuehrer has demanded to take Paris
as soon as possible on the 13.6., for political reasons. Generaloberst von Bock reported to Halder, that he would throw
in the next best unit, that would be close enough to to fulfill the task. It could well be 9. ID ?!
(For me a sign, that this unit was not carefully selected for a special honour.)

However, the war was not finished yet and all those units mentioned above continued with their given tasks. For 87. ID, that was
likely to occupy Paris and the Southern positions shielding it. When the 30. ID arrived in strength on 16.6., it took
posession of the central part of the city from 87. ID and also implemented something like a preliminary Standortkommandantur Paris,
with Gen. von Briesen as Kommandant von Paris (3rd scan).

15.) Then in Kageneck's book, spider, arriving in the afternoon of the 14th of june is waiting is superior,
the Militarbefehlshaber von Paris, who has not been named yet..
In the same time, von Studnitz, commandant of the 87 I.D , HQ at crillon, is taking care of the city
while Von Vollart is named the 17th as the first Kommandant of stadt Paris..

The 3rd scan answers this question :
Bokkelberg had been appointed Militärbefehlshaber in Paris on 12.6. (by that time Paris was not yet occupied) and was given orders
to take up his position on 15.6.40, which he did on the 16.6. His Chef des Kommandostabes became Oberstlt. Speidel !
So, Speidel/(spider ) is waiting for von Vollard-Bokkelberg.

4.) So what was his role [von Briesen] in Paris as the commandant of the 30 I.D?
5.) Kommandant der stadt Paris?
11.) Who was his superior?
12.) where was his quartier?

These are the questions that are still interesting for me too.
But it seems a bit complicated :
Each German Militärverwaltung (here: "Militärbefehlhaber Paris" (which later became Militärbefehlshaber Frankreich) had under it :
- a Militärbefehlshaber : Gen.Lt. von Vollard-Bockelberg
-- a Kommandostab (military branch) : Chef Oberstlt. Hans Speidel
-- a Verwaltungsstab (administrative branch) : Chef Harald Turner (?!)
The exact tasks of the two different branches I still don't know.
I would also like to know exactly the tasks and exact subordination of the Stadtkommandantur Paris.

8.) Question is did Schaumburg succeeded to Von Vollart-Bockelberg directly as Kommandant von Gross-Paris?
6.) When did he [von Briesen] leave?

These two questions are somehow connected and I think I gave a slightly wrong answer before (sorry).
On the 1. August 1940, the following happened :
- Schaumburg replaced von Vollard-Bockelberg as "Militärbefehlshaber Paris"
- HQ 56. ID replaced HQ 30. ID in running the (still provisional) Standortkommandantur Paris (see last scan)
- I would think that at the same time the Kdr. 56. ID replaced von Briesen as Kommandant Paris
- At some time later, Schaumburg became Kommandant von Paris (scan in my first post)
- In Oct. 1940, Otto von Stülpnagel became Militärbefehlshaber Frankreich.
How the different HQs and their tasks changed around that time is still under investigation ...

I hope that answers at least some of your most urgent still open questions .

Best regards,

Archi

[Archi]

Hello tistou48 !

I found some additional info that should clarify some of the open questions :

1.) von Studnitz was the first Stadtkommandant von Paris, from 14.6.40 onward
2.) He was followed almost immediately by von Briesen on 15./16.6.
3.) 30. ID controlled central Paris, while 87., 56. and 217. Inf.Div. controlled the outskirts.

Still open :
- Whether the parade on 16.6.40 happened, because 30. ID took over control seems likely to me, but remains open.
- What exactly the tasks of the Stadtkommandant von Paris were ... Perhaps someone knows ?!

Best regards,

Archi

[tistou48]

Additional infos

Thanks a lot archi!
What book is it? The story of the 30th I.D?

[Archi]

Hello tistou48 !

The scan is from that book by Umbreit, I have cited in post #6.
But it uses some info from 30. ID unit history.

Best regards,

Archi

[Yubari]

thank you for sharing