Unteroffiziervorschule IV (des Heeres)

[TWS]

I believe this would be the appropriate forum; admin please move if I'm in error.

I'm looking for information on Unteroffiziervorschule IV des Heeres. The Army preparatory school for NCO's, number 4.

I've looked on Lexikon der Wehrmacht, put in searches here, and even Googled it, and I can't really find anything.

The location and anything else would be very helpful.

Thanks in advance!

[Gerdan]

I found that the Unteroffiziersschule 4 was located in Neu Sandez, Generalgouvernement.

Gerdan

[Archi]

Hello !

This is an interesting question, but it would be great if you you could provide additional info,
where and in which connection this designation occurs, as the answer may also depend on the timeframe.
It is very difficult to find infos on those schools and especially on the Uffz.-Vorschulen.

If I understood it correctly, those Uffz-Vorschulen, were intended for pupils, who were
just not old enough to become soldiers, but were determined to go that way.
Therefore, they could receive regular education (as in a normal school for their age group),
but also some additional military training, which would be helpful for later NCOs.
A link that describes some of this (at the bottom) :
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...rsschule-R.htm

In 1940, there were 4 Uffz.-Vorschulen in Dresden, Hannover, München and Wiener-Neustadt.
But these may have changed locations and also some were turned into HUS (regular Unteroffizierschulen).
I do not know whether these were ever numbered, therefore any additional info could be useful.

Best regards,

Archi

[TWS]

I found that the Unteroffiziersschule 4 was located in Neu Sandez, Generalgouvernement.

Gerdan

Thanks Gerdan! Do you have any further information or source that points to that location? Bear in mind this is regarding the Unteroffiziervorschule.

Hello !

This is an interesting question, but it would be great if you you could provide additional info,
where and in which connection this designation occurs, as the answer may also depend on the timeframe.
It is very difficult to find infos on those schools and especially on the Uffz.-Vorschulen.

Best regards,

Archi

Hello Archi,
Thanks for the link!
Yes, that is my understanding as well. The school would have been for teenagers who wanted to prepare for a future as a NCO when they were old enough. I am curious because I just acquired a Parade Waffenrock for an Unteroffizier who was probably a member of the cadre or "Lehrpersonal" or otherwise assigned to the school as a staff member, not a pupil.
This is the tunic, as listed in Ratisbon's latest auction.

Unfortunately there is no name tag - which usually had a date from the tailor. If there was one, it was removed. There are a couple stitch holes/small loose threads in the pocket which lead me to believe a name tag was purposefully removed - which we see often.

[Archi]

Hello Todd/TWS !

Nice tunic !

I found some more info on this topic :
In April 1940, the first four Heeres-Uffz.-Vorschulen (Army NCO Preparatory schools) were formed in :
- Dresden [WK IV] [4 Kp.] (=> might have become Schule I f. OA/Fhjk. d. Inf. in 1942)
- Hannover [WK XI] [4 Kp.] (=> might have become Schule VIII f. OA/Fhjk. d. Inf. in 1942 ?!)
- München [WK VII] [4 Kp.] (???)
- Wiener-Neustadt [WK XVII] [4 Kp.] (=> might have become Schule II f. OA/Fhjk. d. Inf.)

Status in Nov. 1942 :
Heeresunteroffizier-Vorschulen existing in (list is likely not complete. Additions are welcome !):
WK IV :
- Freiberg
- Marienberg
- Tetschen

WK V :
- Ravensburg

WK VI :
- Jülich

WK IX :
- Wetzlar
- Weilburg

WK XII :
- Biebrich (b. Wiesbaden)

WK XX :
- Mewe

WK XXI :
- Kosten

I am afraid, this doesn't help to finally answer your question, to which school this soldier was attached.
But I hope it gives at least some references.

I would just like to mention a few points :
I haven't found any hint, that the HU-Vorschulen ever used a number system. They were always referred to by their
location. (Somehow similar applies to the HUS, which only in November 1944 were given arabic numbers instead locations).
(However, it may well be, that such a numbering existed, but is simply not known.)

In my oppinion, the IV could perhaps point to WK IV. But then the question is, what would happen in 1942 ?
Would teachers in all 3 schools in WK IV have shoulderboards similar to those shown in your photos ?!
Same question for WK IX. Or should those boards be distinctive for every individual school ?
Lots of questions remain ...

Best regards,

Archi

[TWS]

Wow Archi! Thanks. Excellent work. I really appreciate it.

You are right, still many questions remain.

You also may be correct in that the schools themselveswere not numbered, but rather the cadre at each school wore insignia with the Wehrkreis roman numeral. I have seen another tunic, a 4-pocket Dienstrock on the Internet with the same chain stitching on the boards. Collectors have a lot of "lore" which is often revealed to be "collector urban legend" when subjected to hard research, but for what it's worth that tunic was referred to belonging to "school four" as well.

I have one more clue, but it is actually contradictory: The tunic was made by Friedrich Wesemann tailor shop in Hannover.

That would normally point to the school in Hannover since soldiers almost always went to a tailor either in/near their duty station or their home town. But that would be Wehrkreis XI.

[naxos]

Excellent tunic!

Here is a page from a Soldbuch of a Heeresunteroffizier-Vorschüler

Note; the Heeresunteroffizier-Vorschüler born in June 1925 was issued the Soldbuch in October 1942 when he was admitted to the Heeres-Unteroffizier Schule in Düren

[Archi]

Hello !

Very interesting addition by naxos ! Thanks !
So he was "drafted" to the HUS shortly after becoming 17.
I would be very interested how long he stayed in the HUS Jülich. Is it possible to say that from the other entries ?

Regarding the last post by Todd :
>>You also may be correct in that the schools themselveswere not numbered ...<<
I just want to mention, that at least such a numbering is not known to me.
If you look at the two scans, taken from organizational overviews of the replacement army,
you can see that in both cases the "Schule f. Offz.Anwärter" is mentioned with the respective number (I and IV),
while this is not the case for the HUS or the Vorschulen.

I have found a few more links regarding similar tunics :
One looks similar to yours but has a reference to a tailor in Frankfurt :
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/a...5-a5210135fe37

There is another one, which doesn't load in my browser, with a reference to tailor in Hildesheim (close to Hannover).

Perhaps even more interesting :
I found a nice photo of a soldier from a HUS, who also seems to wear a roman number (at least to me it looks like a : II) :
http://www.pixpast.com/forum/public_...p?p=7147#p7147

Currently, I am not sure what to make from these findings. If you more infos on these topic, it would be great
if you could share those here !

Best regards,

Archi

[naxos]

Hello !

Very interesting addition by naxos ! Thanks !
So he was "drafted" to the HUS shortly after becoming 17.
I would be very interested how long he stayed in the HUS Jülich. Is it possible to say that from the other entries ?


Best regards,

Archi

Thanks Archi

I will start another thread for this SB in the Eric-Jan Bakker Forum

[TWS]

Excellent tunic!

Here is a page from a Soldbuch of a Heeresunteroffizier-Vorschüler

Note; the Heeresunteroffizier-Vorschüler born in June 1925 was issued the Soldbuch in October 1942 when he was admitted to the Heeres-Unteroffizier Schule in Düren

Thanks naxos! Very interesting Soldbuch!

I have found a few more links regarding similar tunics :
One looks similar to yours but has a reference to a tailor in Frankfurt :
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/a...5-a5210135fe37

There is another one, which doesn't load in my browser, with a reference to tailor in Hildesheim (close to Hannover).

Perhaps even more interesting :
I found a nice photo of a soldier from a HUS, who also seems to wear a roman number (at least to me it looks like a : II) :
http://www.pixpast.com/forum/public_...p?p=7147#p7147

Archi

Yes sir The one in the link that was for sale is one I have seen before. Interesting period photo. Thanks for putting it up.
If I do learn anything further, I will definitely let you know. Thanks a ton for all of the input you have contributed.

[TWS]

"When all else fails, read the instructions".

I pulled my copy of Angolia and Schlicht off the shelf and searched until I found the appropriate section.

Turns out that with regards to the Vorschulen, that Roman numeral would indeed be the Wehrkreis, while the regular NCO academies would have the first letter of the city in which the academy was based. And it gives white as the branch/piping color for all Vorschulen at the time of the regulation Schlicht cited.

[Archi]

Hello !

Thanks Archi
I will start another thread for this SB in the Eric-Jan Bakker Forum

That would be very nice ! Really looking forward to that !

"When all else fails, read the instructions".

Indeed, and sometimes it even helps !!

I found some additional info in a book by Allmayer-Beck on the schools in Wiener Neustadt 1938 - 1945 :
a) It confirms, what Todd/TWS found in Angolia/Schlicht and perhaps has some additional details (see scan).
b) It also has some info on the general course of education :
- 6 weeks of basic training (after which the successful apprentices would receive their Seitengewehr)
- then 2 1/2 years of school, after which they would attend a HUS school, just as shown in the example by naxos

Some details on the H.U.-Vorschule in Wiener Neustadt :
- In the first half of 1941, further admittances to all the Vorschulen were stopped.
- The school in Wiener Neustadt became reduced from 6 to 4 companies already in February 41.
- Several of the existing HU-Vorschulen became merged in 41/42
- finally the HUVS XVII at Wiener Neustadt was closed by ~28. Feb. 1942. The 1. company was transferred to HUS Düren (!).
2.-4. co. became part of Heeres-Uffz.-Vorschule München (WK VII).

Best regards,

Archi

[TWS]

Thanks again Archi. That's some good information.

[naxos]

Todd, I found some photos of a Jungschuetze from 3./Heeres-Unteroffiziervorschule Tetschen (IV), in full uniform.

The pictures were taken in Tetschen (today Děčín in the Czech Republic).

Tetschen belonged to WK IV - Heeres-Unteroffiziervorschule IV was located there.


I will post the pictures soon.

[TWS]

Todd, I found some photos of a Jungschuetze from 3./Heeres-Unteroffiziervorschule IV, in full uniform.

The pictures were taken in Tetschen (today Děčín in the Czech Republic).

Tetschen belonged to WK IV - Heeres-Unteroffiziervorschule IV was located there.


I will post the pictures soon.

Awesome! Look forward to it.