Oblt d. R. Otto Heinrich Thiessen

[Tony Mickelson]

Does anybody have any information about Oblt Otto Thiessen? All I can find about him was born in 1921 and died in 1993 and he may have served in the 198 Infantry Division. His home was in Northern Germany under the Wehrkries X area. He is wearing a IC 2nd Class in the picture as a substitute for the RK and a later picture shows him wearing the 57 RK. So far I can't find him on the Ritterkreuz list nor can I find his war record. Does anybody have any information on him? I would appreciate the help.
Tony

[tony james]

Tony
there's a collector / dealer from the pittsburg area that has his 57 KC and other awards on ebay that was recently discussed on the the 57 fourm. im sure he might have some information .i might still have his contact info.

[Tony Mickelson]

Hi Tony,
Yes I talked to the dealer from Pittsburgh, and I am purchasing the grouping. He was very helpful reference he had a list of the awards the soldier won. No specifics on his service or how he won the Knights Cross. Looking at his WW2 picture, he served during the 1st winter in Russia. The RK award document copy indicated 198 INF Div and that Division did served in Russia during the 1st year of the invasion. The only problem with document is it has Muller's signature. Generalmajor Muller left command of the 198 INF a year before the dated listed on the award, unless there was another Muller authorized to sign that document. The dog tag indicates INF. ERS. BLT 209 4th KP which was a replacement battalion that started in the Wehrkries X area then early in the war moved to Denmark. At that time the 198th INF DIV was also in Denmark. On the web, I did find out that he his home was in Northern Germany with his occupation listed as a farmer. He died in 1993 and his 2nd wife just died in 2014. No military history was mentioned on the web, with the exception of this photo in a waffenrock when he 1st joined the German Army. So I know it is Otto in the pictures. It would just be nice to know what he did to earn the RK's.
Tony

[tony james]

Tony
its a nice grouping . i looked it over at the MAX .

[tony james]

Tony
its a nice grouping . i looked it over at the MAX . good luck with your research and let us know how he earned the KC when you get that information.

[hucks216]

If in this day and age when so much research has been done for the various RK lists and books if he is an authorised winner why is he not mentioned anywhere? Apart from the photo above showing him wearing an EK II as a RK are there any other images of him wearing an actual RK?

From the comments I assume he was supposedly awarded the RK in 1943 and the citation was signed by the Divisional Commander but those citations were signed at OKH level, not divisional. For 1943 the signature should be one of Rudolf Schmundt, Wilhelm Burgdorf or Viktor Linnarz.

Is it that he is a 'Walter Mitty' believing himself to be entitled to it (maybe he was put forward to it but it was turned down) and so awarding it to himself post war?

[John Toner]

The only Thiessen I know of is Hans, listed by Fellgiebel as an unrecognised Knights Cross winner.

Rank & Assignment: Lt., Fhr. 2./He.Fla-Abt. 'GD'
Awarded 09 May 1945
KIA 24 February 1945 bei Bartenstein (Ostpreußen).


I hope this is helpful.

John

[Gerdan]

I think the 1945 in Ostpreußen KIA guy is not the Thiessen we see on the photographs. The right

pic should be taken after the end of the ww2 1945 in his civil life. He is also awarded with the

Bundeverdienstkreuz.

Gerdan

[Tony Mickelson]

There is a lot of questions, but that is what makes this hobby interesting. Yes, I only found the one Thiessen that was listed as a RK winner also (Otto is not the one.) As I read some other sources, there is a question if that Thiessen actually was officially awarded the RK. To be nominated is one thing, but to get official approval by the appropriate authority is another. Some collector's feel that the OdR membership card that RK winners carried after the war was flawed. Of course the list of RK winners that are listed, like on Wikipedia, is constantly being updated as more RK winners are discovered and some currently on the list are in question. I am sure some soldier's would wear the RK and claim they earned the award (even though they didn't), just like what you read currently from time to time of"stolen valor" incidents. Yet, many soldiers in the German Army enlisted from the same area and served in the same units. So I would think somebody would have challenged a comrade wearing a fraudulent award such as the RK-since it would bring dishonor and disrespect to those who made the sacrifice and earned it. The picture of Otto wearing the RK taken during the war years is substituted with an IC 2nd class. That was practiced by soldiers who did not want to loss the original award. I have a picture of LT Hempel who won his RK in April of 45. If you look at the original Hempel's wartime photo, the portrait doesn't have the RK, but Hempel's signature copies of the same photo has a RK super imposed/ added. I am supposed to be receiving Thiessen's grouping this week with papers/ copies. Hopefully that will help. Still if somebody finds some concrete evidence one way or the other, I would be greatful.
Cheers,
Tony

[Tony Mickelson]

Photocopy of documents

These copies of documents came with the grouping. One is a summary of his awards which could have been typed by anybody. The second appears as an official document that was signed by a Dr. Mack after the war (1 Dez. 45) listing the awards he earned during the war. I don't know if this was a veteran thing or a paper that would have been attached to his discharged. Has anybody seen this document format type done shortly after the war? Anyway the Deutsche Kreuz was crossed out in ink. The 57 RK is a good early original set to include box and ribbon. The cloth of the ribbon and box does not glow under UV light. Looking at the later Thiessen picture and the 57' RK, both appear the same. I have searched the web and it is difficult since there are a number of mispellings (i.e. Heinrich vs Hinrich and Thiessen vs Theissen or Thiesen.) In the Rangliste des Heers 1944/45 has his name (and the other RK winner-Hans) name spelled Theissen. The Thiesen-some are him and some are not. He and another Thiesen were both members of the CDU political party and both appeared to have worked for the German Government. Otto appear to have lived in the Flensburg area for a period and the Schleswig-Holstein area for his entire life outside of the war. Anyway, if anybody has any information, I would be appreciative.

[naxos]

He also claimed to have earned 2 TDB's -

I think - post war claims by Thiessen himself.


.

[naxos]

... I am sure some soldier's would wear the RK and claim they earned the award (even though they didn't), just like what you read currently from time to time of"stolen valor" incidents. Yet, many soldiers in the German Army enlisted from the same area and served in the same units. So I would think somebody would have challenged a comrade wearing a fraudulent award such as the RK-since it would bring dishonor and disrespect to those who made the sacrifice and earned it.
Cheers,
Tony

That is why you will never see a picture of one of these buffoons wearing their stolen awards among their comrades.

.

[Tony Mickelson]

All good points. The yellow paper listing the awards origins is unknown. It may have been a made up one by the original seller in 2004. Thiessen wartime photo is original WW2 era based on the photo paper. If he earned the tank destruction badge, you would think he would definitely be wearing one of them on his uniform. Again there is no source of origin on the yellow paper or if it was composed after his death in 1993. The other more official looking paper is closer to what he was wearing on his uniform except the picture is missing the close combat badge. So there are issues and that is why I brought it up to the forum. Hopefully their is somebody in the forum who can find solid evidence to determine if this OBLT was a war hero or a con-man. It is noted his picture was shown in an earlier thread reference the 57 RK:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...essen&page=202

[naxos]

To me the studio photo is a clever deception.

He took his EKII and wrapped it in a way (see image) that it appeared like a knight's cross.

In this fashion it was possible to take the studio picture but the iron cross was not fixed to the uniform to wear otherwise.

[hucks216]

None of the RK listings have him listed as a RKT. Too much research has been done for the publications for there to of been one soldier 'missed out'. Even those who have dubious claims are known. The December 1945 dated paper could of just been a case of someone asking Thiessen what awards he was entitled to and he told them, embellishing what he was entitled too by lying about the RK and other awards.
I have no doubt that Thiessen is lying about what he was entitled too and was never a winner of the Knights Cross.