German Panzerzug (Armoured train)

[Admiraal]

I´m looking for more info about this German armoured train (pictures below).
As far as i can find out it has a captured Russian locomotive and armoured railcar.
From which date did the Germans use captured Russian armoured train parts?
Shouldn´t they be coverted to German rail-size first?
Also, about the painted german baltic crosses: are they all the same size on every captured russian armoured train? or is this something unique?

I´m looking for a date indication (aprox year?) of the pictures.. or even better the specific unit.

Any help and info is welcome!
Photo:

[hucks216]

German Armoured Trains 1904-1945 by Wolfgang Sawodny ( http://www.amazon.co.uk/German-Armor...1857329&sr=1-6 ) is the bible when it comes to the topic of these units. It covers them in great detail. The first ones captured during Barbarossa were in June 1941 when the Wehrmacht overran the Soviet occupied portion of Poland and captured two that were originally Polish but had been converted to broad guage by the Russians and stationed in Lemberg with the NKVD.
There is an 18 page section on the captured Russian armoured trains in the book, plus another 13 pages on captured Czech & Polish ones.

[hucks216]

Having a good look through it would appear that those type of gun cars were Soviet Type BP 35 and used on Panzerzug 27 & 31 although PZ 31 had one of the turrets replaced with a quad AA gun by the looks of things. It is hard to say from what period as it looks like PZ 27 had those twin turrets fitted from February 1942 to at least March 1944 when it was badly damaged. It didn't have them from June 1941 to January 1942.
Without seeing the whole length of the train it is very difficult to tie it down to a more specific period as the train had more and more railcars added to it as the war progressed.

If the bottom photo is showing the actual end of a fully fitted PZ 27 then it could be in the period Feb-May 1942 as that was the only time the front of the train had the twin turret car and then a single flatbed, with there being 2 flatbeds after this period (one of which carried a Souma tank). However, if the top right photo is showing the armoured locomative then it should place it after July 1942 as only the cab of the loco was armoured before this date, but just to confuse matters a little more, the only configuration that had the locomotive directly attached to the gun cars as seen here was between Feb-May 1942!

EDIT: I've just found a photo in the book that shows PZ 27 after it ran over a mine in May 1942 and the loco is not of the fully armoured type so I'd say that the photos shown here are after that date at least and could show the PZ in a temporary configuration at the training grounds in Poland or at a depot somewhere.

[Admiraal]

That is some great info, thanks!
I´m going to check it tomorrow, i need to go sleep now.
Do you happen to know the location of Eisenbahn-Panzerzug 27 in that aprox. time frame? which part of the (i assume eastern) front ?

[hucks216]

It seems to of operated with Army Group Center. Its movements and actions are covered quite extensively in the above mentioned book.

[Admiraal]

Thanks again!

Well, these photo´s are in a photo album to a Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 191 member.
And i´m trying to narrow down his time with that unit, as he later gets transferred to another unit.
There aint´t enough dates in the soldbuch to be precice, thats why i compair the album as well.

The above mentioned book looks great, but its to much money for just these photo´s.
Your info helped me allot though!

[Fred Carbon]

3. Komp Eisb.Pi.Rgt 3?

Hello

this train should be the security train used by 3. Kompanie of Eisenbahn.Pionner regiment 3 (PzGruppe Kleist - Krementschug area) between Summer 1941 and Spring 1942. It is described page 154-155 of the same book.
It was composed of 1 flat bed wagon, 1 Artillerie wagen which will be used on PzZug 28 later (unknow type) , a Russian type O loc, a BP35 wagon of your photo (the one used on PzZug 30 later) and one flat bed.
If you zoom of the left hand of the first photo you will see the other wagon quite different of a BP35. There was recently a picture showing it on ebay.
The huge BalkenCross were painted to avoid any confusion with Russian armored trains which can be employed in the same area (the front was moving quite often in this area).

German forces used all soviet armored trains they can find very quickly to secure lines which were not converted to German gauge yet