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    #1

    LSSAH: New CCC in Gold and German Cross group / Individual reserach

    Fellow collectors and researchers, I bought a small document group to a Close Combat Clasp in Gold and German Cross in Gold recipient of the “Leibstandarte” recently and wondered whether it was possible to maybe get copies of the recommendations for possibly both awards. I fear the fact that this man was “only” an Uscha and earned both awards in early 1945 will not help my efforts or make it more easily, even possible… Does anyone have a recommendation where to turn to or where to check? Many thanks in advance! Markus
    Tags: None
    #2
    http://www.westmorelandresearch.org/

    Comment

      #3
      A name would be nice, only 2 members of LSSAH fits the description. One of them is pretty well documented.

      As far as I know, there where only 69 SS recipents with the combo NKiG / DKiG.

      Comment

        #4
        @ Leib1: Thanks for the link. I'll make use of it asap.

        @ LRRPS: Yes, correct only two individuals within the LSSAH.

        1) http://www.ww2awards.com/person/34798

        2) http://www.ww2awards.com/person/18581


        Both from the Aufklärungsabteilung. No coincidence imo.

        Thanks guys!

        Markus

        Comment

          #5
          Originally posted by markus View Post
          @ Leib1: Thanks for the link. I'll make use of it asap.

          @ LRRPS: Yes, correct only two individuals within the LSSAH.

          1) http://www.ww2awards.com/person/34798

          2) http://www.ww2awards.com/person/18581


          Both from the Aufklärungsabteilung. No coincidence imo.

          Thanks guys!

          Markus
          are both awards in 1945 ??

          Comment

            #6
            Hi Mark,

            To my knowledge Gustav Knittel was awarded his clasp around
            October 1944, while Willy Gilbert received his in February 1945,
            together with his German Cross in Gold.

            If I'm not mistaking there were 26 CCCiGold awarded in the LAH,
            but only before mentioned two individuals received both the CCCiG
            and the GC.

            Knittel had a little 'help' accumulating his days, comrades in the AA1
            say, while Gilbert really earned his awards and was a 'legend', acc.
            to 'Die Leibstandarte' Vol. IV/2 by Ralf Tiemann.

            Cheers,
            Markus

            Comment

              #7
              I must correct my earlier statement: There were many more
              recipients of the CCCiG and GCiG in the LSSAH.

              Men like Otto Dinse, Rudi Knobloch, Georg Preuss and Werner
              Kindler from 2.SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt 'LSSAH' also got the combination!

              I have not come around timewise to make my homework I'm
              afraid. I'm just getting into the whole CCCiG topic.

              Markus

              Comment

                #8
                As far as I know, the following 8 soldiers got both awards, while serving in LSSAH:

                Friedhoff, Siegfried DKiG 21.07.1944 SS-Oberscharführer II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2
                Friedhoff, Siegfried NKiG 02.06.1944 SS-Oberscharführer II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2
                Hansen, Max NKiG 12.03.1945 SS-Obersturmbannführer SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1
                Hansen, Max DKiG 26.12.1941 SS-Hauptsturmführer 14./LSSAH
                Hinz, Gustaf DKiG 14.02.1945 SS-Hauptscharführer 8./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1 LSSAH
                Hinz, Gustaf NKiG 17.02.1945 SS-Hauptscharführer 8./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1
                Kindler, Werner NKiG 01.04.1945 SS-Unterscharführer 12.(gep.)/SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2
                Kindler, Werner DKiG 20.04.1945 SS-Oberscharführer 12.(gep.)/SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2
                Knittel, Gustav DKiG 23.01.1944 SS-Sturmbannführer SS-Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 1 LSSAH
                Knittel, Gustav NKiG 13.10.1944 SS-Sturmbannführer SS-Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 1
                Preuß, Georg NKiG 01.04.1945 SS-Hauptsturmführer III./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2
                Preuß, Georg DKiG 20.04.1945 SS-Hauptsturmführer III./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2
                Rink, Herbert NKiG 17.02.1945 SS-Obersturmführer 2./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1
                Rink, Herbert DKiG 23.05.1944 SS-Obersturmführer 2./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1
                Steinhoff, Horst NKiG 01.04.1945 SS-Untersturmführer 5./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2
                Steinhoff, Horst DKiG 20.04.1945 SS-Untersturmführer 5./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2

                Can't find Dinze or Knobloch on any DKiG lists, where they official recipents of the award? Also, can only find 16 members of LSSAH with the NKiG. If you have other information, please share

                Comment

                  #9
                  Originally posted by LRRPS View Post
                  As far as I know, the following 8 soldiers got both awards, while serving in LSSAH:

                  Friedhoff, Siegfried DKiG 21.07.1944 SS-Oberscharführer II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2
                  Friedhoff, Siegfried NKiG 02.06.1944 SS-Oberscharführer II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2
                  Hansen, Max NKiG 12.03.1945 SS-Obersturmbannführer SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1
                  Hansen, Max DKiG 26.12.1941 SS-Hauptsturmführer 14./LSSAH
                  Hinz, Gustaf DKiG 14.02.1945 SS-Hauptscharführer 8./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1 LSSAH
                  Hinz, Gustaf NKiG 17.02.1945 SS-Hauptscharführer 8./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1
                  Kindler, Werner NKiG 01.04.1945 SS-Unterscharführer 12.(gep.)/SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2
                  Kindler, Werner DKiG 20.04.1945 SS-Oberscharführer 12.(gep.)/SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2
                  Knittel, Gustav DKiG 23.01.1944 SS-Sturmbannführer SS-Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 1 LSSAH
                  Knittel, Gustav NKiG 13.10.1944 SS-Sturmbannführer SS-Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 1
                  Preuß, Georg NKiG 01.04.1945 SS-Hauptsturmführer III./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2
                  Preuß, Georg DKiG 20.04.1945 SS-Hauptsturmführer III./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2
                  Rink, Herbert NKiG 17.02.1945 SS-Obersturmführer 2./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1
                  Rink, Herbert DKiG 23.05.1944 SS-Obersturmführer 2./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1
                  Steinhoff, Horst NKiG 01.04.1945 SS-Untersturmführer 5./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2
                  Steinhoff, Horst DKiG 20.04.1945 SS-Untersturmführer 5./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2

                  Can't find Dinze or Knobloch on any DKiG lists, where they official recipents of the award? Also, can only find 16 members of LSSAH with the NKiG. If you have other information, please share

                  Hi LRRPS,

                  Thanks for all the work.

                  Yes, 16 recipients of the CCCiG for the LSSAH.

                  I haven't been able to check the above list, but Uscha Wilhelm Gilbert of 2./SS-Pz-Aufkl.-Abt. 1 "LSSAH" is definitely missing. He earned both awards on February 28, 1945.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Originally posted by markus View Post
                    Knittel had a little 'help' accumulating his days, comrades in the AA1
                    say, while Gilbert really earned his awards and was a 'legend', acc.
                    to 'Die Leibstandarte' Vol. IV/2 by Ralf Tiemann.
                    Can you detail on which page in IV/2 Tiemann claims that Knittel had "a little help" or name the veterans who made this claim?

                    In addition: Gilbert received his DKiG on May 6, 1945, from the hands of Hans-Martin Leidreiter. Shortly before the "ceremony" he had been captured by the Americans but escaped while they waited for transport to the rear.
                    Last edited by Ruimteaapje; 05-27-2011, 01:31 AM.

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Ruimteaapje View Post
                      Can you detail on which page in IV/2 Tiemann claims that Knittel had "a little help" or name the veterans who made this claim?

                      In addition: Gilbert received his DKiG on May 6, 1945, from the hands of Hans-Martin Leidreiter. Shortly before the "ceremony" he had been captured by the Americans but escaped while they waited for transport to the rear.

                      Hi R.

                      Great information there on Willy Gilbert. Thank you!
                      I remeber reading that when he reported back to Leidreiter
                      around May 7 or 8, he had been liberated from all his medals,
                      Belt buckle etc by the GIs who had captured him.

                      Ralf Tiemann did not write anything on Knittel accumulation
                      of close combat days. There are a lot of thing Lehmann and he
                      preferred not to put into their books. No, the thing about Knittel
                      is more hear-say amongst further members of the AA1, but there
                      is no sense in mentioning names.

                      Thank you very much again for the piece of info.

                      Great weekend!

                      Markus

                      Comment

                        #12
                        If I'm correct, every recepient of the CCCiG also received the GCiG.
                        ( By Führer-decree)

                        Regards, Alex

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Alex K View Post
                          If I'm correct, every recepient of the CCCiG also received the GCiG.
                          ( By Führer-decree)

                          Regards, Alex

                          This did not always happen! Esp towards latter stages of the War..

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Hi Markus,

                            Even worse, they even stripped him of his uniform. According to Leidreiter he was still "naked" when he reported back to him (I suppose meaning he was in his underwear). He told me this was on May 6, shortly before he awarded Gilbert his DKiG.

                            But in the end it is impossible to say if it was on May 6, 7 or 8. Leidreiter had to recall all these details decades later, and despite his very good memory there where often small differences when he told the same story twice.

                            Perhaps you can PM me the names of said veterans? Helmut M also told me about the "problem" with Knittel's CC days but he was certainly heavily influenced by Leidreiter in this, who sort of complained to me: "how could Knittel have more CC days than me when I was allways with him?" The answer is off course that Leidreiter was wounded on December 15, 1943, and returned to the Abteilung on May 10, 1944. Meanwhile Knittel led the Abteilung during the rest of December, in January, February, March and early April during the devastating battles in the Ukraine, even earning his RK in close combat.

                            Originally posted by markus View Post
                            Hi R.

                            Great information there on Willy Gilbert. Thank you!
                            I remeber reading that when he reported back to Leidreiter
                            around May 7 or 8, he had been liberated from all his medals,
                            Belt buckle etc by the GIs who had captured him.

                            Ralf Tiemann did not write anything on Knittel accumulation
                            of close combat days. There are a lot of thing Lehmann and he
                            preferred not to put into their books. No, the thing about Knittel
                            is more hear-say amongst further members of the AA1, but there
                            is no sense in mentioning names.

                            Thank you very much again for the piece of info.

                            Great weekend!

                            Markus

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Ruimteaapje View Post
                              Hi Markus,

                              Even worse, they even stripped him of his uniform. According to Leidreiter he was still "naked" when he reported back to him (I suppose meaning he was in his underwear). He told me this was on May 6, shortly before he awarded Gilbert his DKiG.

                              But in the end it is impossible to say if it was on May 6, 7 or 8. Leidreiter had to recall all these details decades later, and despite his very good memory there where often small differences when he told the same story twice.

                              Perhaps you can PM me the names of said veterans? Helmut M also told me about the "problem" with Knittel's CC days but he was certainly heavily influenced by Leidreiter in this, who sort of complained to me: "how could Knittel have more CC days than me when I was allways with him?" The answer is off course that Leidreiter was wounded on December 15, 1943, and returned to the Abteilung on May 10, 1944. Meanwhile Knittel led the Abteilung during the rest of December, in January, February, March and early April during the devastating battles in the Ukraine, even earning his RK in close combat.


                              Hi R.,

                              Thanks R. for the great details and contribution.

                              Leidreiter was his adju and should have known where one and another cc day came from imo.

                              All the best,
                              Markus

                              Comment

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