warcrimes on civilians in december 1944?

[Thorsten B.]

Nobody trys or tried to excuse or trivialize anything - nobody including me and Gran Sasso.

Nobody will find any evidence or intention within all my comments - nowhere in this forum.

All you will find are you guys insulting me doing what I never did because you just have no arguments:

There are war crimes that are allowed to be discussed and portrayed in full length, extent, with or without pics - and that´s fine.

BUT when I was honest and bold enough to open a thread about war crimes done by Allied troops in 1945 being executed en masse in and around the region where I am living that thread got IMMEDIATELY deleted - of course without any given reason or even excuse - AND I received even an infraction.

An infraction for what?!

For trying to tell what happened here in the last period of the war, just to talk about history, that´s all.

That´s all I was trying to do - no political agenda, no excuses, just the plain historical facts.

It was and is impossible.

You guys do not want to see, hear anything your beloved heroes really did.

You do not want to face reality, not getting the full picture to be in balance, to develope, to learn from history.

Now I won´t bother you guys anymore - have fun in your one-sided viwe and world of untouchable heroes.

Interestingly enough you prefer collecting the stuff of the bad guys, not of heroes.

Where is the balance?

[Ruimteaapje]

Nobody trys or tried to excuse or trivialize anything - nobody including me and Gran Sasso.

Then why did you participate in this topic at all? Clearly not to post anything about the Stavelot murders.

[leib1]

Hi Harro,
excellent research how long do we after wait for the book ?
Was any explanation given up for these sorts of atrocities' that seemed to happen quite a bit on all fronts ?From the ex members lah?
Best Jamie

[Ruimteaapje]

Ah, so you're Leib1! Thanks for the compliment. I'm currently going through all chapters of my manuscript for final additions and corrections. Could still take some time because once again some new info turned up that has to be included. But I'm nearly there.

Regarding your question about veterans and attrocities, it depends because every veteran has his own thoughts about this subject, but in general it is save to say that when they're in the company of comrades they keep up the story that nothing happened in the Ardennes or that civilians shot at them. However, in private they tend to be more open, acknowledging what we already know: warcrimes. One veteran even described how his platoon commander ordered him to burry two civilians who had just been shot. He asked me to find out if these victims were found and reburied in a proper way. He also described how men from his platoon took pot-shots at random civilians and how one of them killed a woman with a burst from his MP44 through the door when they wanted to search a house somewere west of Stavelot. They put it down to frustration and fear: many of them realized that the offensive had failed once the Americans recaptured Stavelot behind their backs and took it out on random civilians, especially because they believed that civilians informed the Americans about all their moves. Fear became an increasingly important factor when the Americans were clearly surrounding them and tried to crush them between the Old Hickory from the east and north and the 3rd Armored Division from the west. Fear of being killed or captured, fear for what the Americans would do to them once the victims of the warcrimes were found. Some fell back on even more bloodshed in an attempt to silence those civilians who could testify against them, others tried to save the lives of civilians, knowing that when captured by the Americans they could use all the goodwill they could get (similar to the way Peiper was a gentleman to his American prisoners in La Gleize, once he realized that captivity could be near and that Malmèdy would cause his a lot of trouble. He was also trying to put himself in a more favorable light and McCown fell for his charm).

[leib1]

Well at least in private they admit the truth,i suppose fear affects everyone in different ways !
Best Jamie

[Tora_Tora_Tora!]

Ah, so you're Leib1! Thanks for the compliment. I'm currently going through all chapters of my manuscript for final additions and corrections. Could still take some time because once again some new info turned up that has to be included. But I'm nearly there.

Regarding your question about veterans and attrocities, it depends because every veteran has his own thoughts about this subject, but in general it is save to say that when they're in the company of comrades they keep up the story that nothing happened in the Ardennes or that civilians shot at them. However, in private they tend to be more open, acknowledging what we already know: warcrimes. One veteran even described how his platoon commander ordered him to burry two civilians who had just been shot. He asked me to find out if these victims were found and reburied in a proper way. He also described how men from his platoon took pot-shots at random civilians and how one of them killed a woman with a burst from his MP44 through the door when they wanted to search a house somewere west of Stavelot. They put it down to frustration and fear: many of them realized that the offensive had failed once the Americans recaptured Stavelot behind their backs and took it out on random civilians, especially because they believed that civilians informed the Americans about all their moves. Fear became an increasingly important factor when the Americans were clearly surrounding them and tried to crush them between the Old Hickory from the east and north and the 3rd Armored Division from the west. Fear of being killed or captured, fear for what the Americans would do to them once the victims of the warcrimes were found. Some fell back on even more bloodshed in an attempt to silence those civilians who could testify against them, others tried to save the lives of civilians, knowing that when captured by the Americans they could use all the goodwill they could get (similar to the way Peiper was a gentleman to his American prisoners in La Gleize, once he realized that captivity could be near and that Malmèdy would cause his a lot of trouble. He was also trying to put himself in a more favorable light and McCown fell for his charm).

Many compliments for the researches and for the forthcoming book!!
Will it be in english?
Will it cover also the episodes of Bande and Wereth?
I think that, from the opposite side, would be interesting also to know more details about what's happened in Chenogne.

In any case if we can be "out of sides" we really recognize at 360 degreees what the war is....a terrible thing....

Again, many compliments for your research.

[HouweTrouwe]

Ruimpteaapje, thanks for all your research.

En wanneer uw boek uitkomt, zal ik hem zeker aanschaffen. Gaat dit dan enkel over de LSSAH worden?

[Ruimteaapje]

Many compliments for the researches and for the forthcoming book!!
Will it be in english?
Will it cover also the episodes of Bande and Wereth?
I think that, from the opposite side, would be interesting also to know more details about what's happened in Chenogne.

In any case if we can be "out of sides" we really recognize at 360 degreees what the war is....a terrible thing....

Again, many compliments for your research.

Thanks! I will cover Wéreth because the perpetrators were members of Schnelle Gruppe Knittel and I'm writing a biography about Knittel.

Ruimpteaapje, thanks for all your research.

En wanneer uw boek uitkomt, zal ik hem zeker aanschaffen. Gaat dit dan enkel over de LSSAH worden?

Only about Gustav Knittel, which means that the 15.(Krad)/LAH and the AA LAH (later SS-Pz.AA1 LSSAH) are covered but the focus is on Knittel himself (pre-war, wartime, capture, trial, imprisonment, appeal and afterwards upto his death in 1976).

[bobcam1]

This topic reminds me that many of you may be interested in the film "The Wereth Eleven", directed by my very good friend, and a VERY talented director, Rob Child.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1641253/

[Ruimteaapje]

This topic reminds me that many of you may be interested in the film "The Wereth Eleven", directed by my very good friend, and a VERY talented director, Rob Child.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1641253/

It's a pitty that the film follows the old misunderstanding that Kampfgruppe Hansen was responsible for those murders.

[collectorGD]

Ruimteaapje,

thanks for the information. It's detailed and wel researched like it shoud be! And please send me a pm when your book is for sale.