Feldherrnhalle - elite or not?

[Panzer Rob]

Excellent info, Simon. Thanks so much for posting it.

Rob

[besslein]

Feldherrnhalle was never a elite...............

[Mike Bollow]

Forums never cease to amaze me.

[Panzer Rob]

For Rob -
Many thanks for your very learned comments on this issue, Rob. I definitely learned something. As an after thought, I recall seeing some very long discussions on Axis History Forum a year or two ago on the subject of which units were elite as opposed to which were Traditionsverbände, and the process and requirements that existed for both classifications. I do not remember all the details because I didn't stay with it to the end, but I think the consensus was that FHH was a Traditionsverband in the same sense that 44. Inf.-Div. "Hoch und Deutschmeister" was. Of course, these opinions could be misguided.

--Larry

Interesting, Larry. I did not see that thread. When I get some free time I'll have to see if I can dig it up. AHF really is a wealth of information... there just isn't enough time in the day to keep track of all the great threads!



Rob

[Simon O.]

Forums never cease to amaze me.

Mike

How about comenting on the points made?

[Carson]

I appreciate the awesome information you posted Simon!

I had assumed that Feldherrnhalle units, including the one that guarded the monument were "elite" as I had compared them to the US Marines who guard the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. (Sorry for being so noob...)

If I understand this correctly, originally both the guard and combat units of Feldherrnhalle were a high percentage of SA members, with no special training or intensive instruction?

Was there any co-relation between the combat units and the guard units?

Was there any prerequisites to being assigned to the monument?

So many questions, but insight is appreciated!

[Simon O.]

Whilst i'm no specialsit on the SA i think it might be useful to look at the initial combat performance of many of the early SS units. To take one example i'm well familiar with, SS-Nord, made up of SS-TK standarten (and thus had pre-war paramilitary training as did the SA). It performed miserably initially, suffering very high casualty rates.

[Carson]

Thank you for the lead Simon. I will research this unit and get more insight!

Regards!

[Mark Mac]

This would have been a great thread, had it not turned sour. I love discussions like this as long as they stay on track. Please don't take everything at face value. Sometimes intent is hard to read into from a post that was typed across the world in a few minutes... Not pointing the finger at anyone, just pointing it out.

Anyway, I am no expert, but I did want to add this: I understand the organization of the SA, the hierarchy, training and militarization of the personnel would provide some basic military skills and save time when preparing a unit for combat, as would being surrounded by veterans of the First World War. But after the purges I think this would have been "watered" down as the interest in the SA was not so glamorous, as stated above. But to add further, I think most of the male population was "militarized" and would have received much of what the SA provided in any event. The HJ was the starter course, marching, military bearing, some weapons training, marching, camping, etc.

Next was the RAD. Look at thse videos and you can see that this was basic training at the very least:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02uw8uB_ueE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKT_8...eature=related

Anyone with the slightest of military training would recognize the above scenes.

And the RAD was in emergency situations, used in combat, at times very effectively.

Finally, was there not a large portion of men that were "processed" through the military then put in reserve, in order to maintain (or the appearance thereof) of the 100,000 man Reichswehr?

So, just on this point, I think that most German men already possessed some basic (at the very least) military training/skills and would not have been less prepared than an SA member, based on the organization of the SA.

Let's keep this going in a positive manner. There is already very interesting info. here.

Last thing, this thread is irrelevant anyway as the 29.Infanterie Division (Mot) was a much better division!

Regards,

Mark

[Huntzman]

Not at all. I am just saying that opinions vary and that you may have some difficulty finding others with the depth of knowledge, interest and sufficient passion, time and energy to engage in protracted argument with you on this rather narrow subject. I think it is one of those arguments that is infinite.

I think you hit it right on the head. My personal belief is collect what you want, and enjoy it for the feelings you have for the subject. To often I think we allow our own prejudices to skew our viewpoint or that of another. Just collect and be happy and not worry about the minutae. Hell, if it's a beautiful sunny day outside you have 50/50 odds of someone complaining it's too damn warm.

It's the military collecting equivalent of who makes the best pizza.......... (hint: it's New York !!)

And as far as the "comments" go, it serves to confirm what I have always felt about the internet and forums like this. Words on a screen never seem to convey the true intent of the writer. They lack the vocal inflection that conveys so much of what we take for granted in the real world: laughter, sarcasm, anger, etc.... I didn't take Larry's post as being rude, but I do take it as evidence to his earlier post as quoted above.

As far as re-enactors go, aw heck everyone needs a hobby they can enjoy. Every one of us has our own brand of merry mayhem we engage in.

Then again, it's just my .02 cents and I could very well be blind drunk at this very moment and speaking out of my........................

Happy collecting !!!!!!!!

[Simon O.]

This would have been a great thread, had it not turned sour. I love discussions like this as long as they stay on track. Please don't take everything at face value. Sometimes intent is hard to read into from a post that was typed across the world in a few minutes... Not pointing the finger at anyone, just pointing it out.

Anyway, I am no expert, but I did want to add this: I understand the organization of the SA, the hierarchy, training and militarization of the personnel would provide some basic military skills and save time when preparing a unit for combat, as would being surrounded by veterans of the First World War. But after the purges I think this would have been "watered" down as the interest in the SA was not so glamorous, as stated above. But to add further, I think most of the male population was "militarized" and would have received much of what the SA provided in any event. The HJ was the starter course, marching, military bearing, some weapons training, marching, camping, etc.

Next was the RAD. Look at thse videos and you can see that this was basic training at the very least:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02uw8uB_ueE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKT_8...eature=related

Anyone with the slightest of military training would recognize the above scenes.

And the RAD was in emergency situations, used in combat, at times very effectively.

Finally, was there not a large portion of men that were "processed" through the military then put in reserve, in order to maintain (or the appearance thereof) of the 100,000 man Reichswehr?

So, just on this point, I think that most German men already possessed some basic (at the very least) military training/skills and would not have been less prepared than an SA member, based on the organization of the SA.

Let's keep this going in a positive manner. There is already very interesting info. here.

Last thing, this thread is irrelevant anyway as the 29.Infanterie Division (Mot) was a much better division!

Regards,

Mark

I think we have to make clear which units we're talking of here. If it's those actually named FHH then we're talking of a division that was only raised in mid '43 therefore prewar systems of training, like national service and the like don't really apply. If we're to include other FHH named units then we get even later in the war until we end up with more or less last ditch renaming of units only a shadow of their former selves.

[LRRPS]

I think we have to make clear which units we're talking of here. If it's those actually named FHH then we're talking of a division that was only raised in mid '43 therefore prewar systems of training, like national service and the like don't really apply. If we're to include other FHH named units then we get even later in the war until we end up with more or less last ditch renaming of units only a shadow of their former selves.

Does anyone know why Infanteri-Regiment 271 got the title "Feldherrnhalle" in Aug '42? Alternatively, a good reference to Infanterie-Division 93 would be nice.

[Larry deZeng]

LRRPS -

See Post #17 in this thread. When the Standarte wad broken up in early 1939, the great majority of the SA personnel went to the nascent Fallschirmjäger branch and the much small remainder went to I.R. 271. At least that's what the German language sources say. To find out more, you will probably have to obtain and read one of the several books on FHH. They are all listed in this thread.

--Larry