Hi,
Who know witch Fallschirmjäger unit fight in Vassieux en Vercors on july 1944.
Thanks by advance.
Who know witch Fallschirmjäger unit fight in Vassieux en Vercors on july 1944.
Thanks by advance.
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Vassieux
Hello,
The German paratrooper swho where in Vassieux and landed there with the gldiers where par of the so called "Batallion Jungwirth"
According to what i have on this unit they where under the command of the II./KG 200
Cordial greetings, -
Thanks,
But can you please explic me why where was fallschirmjäger on a Kampfgeschwader ?Comment
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If you don't know anything about KG 200, I suggest you read the Thomas book (in English) and/or the Gellermann book (in German). The original documents all refer to it as Kampfgruppe “Schäfer". Maj. Hans Jungwirt was no longer the commander of II./KG 200 at the time of the operation and did not lead the glider assault on Vercors.
II./KG 200
3.Staffel (renumbered 7.Staffel on or about 11 July 1944)
Formed 21 Feb 44 at Dedelstorf as a special operations commando unit with around 350 hand-picked paratroops (Fallschirmjäger). The men were subjected to a regimen of very hard training during spring 1944. Usually referred to as Kampfgruppe “Schäfer” from July 1944.
Jun 44: reinforced with around 100 men from 1.Staffel (above) under Oblt. Friedrich Schäfer and transferred to Lyon/France at the beginning of July as Kampfgruppe “Schäfer” to join Army ground units for a large air-landing and ground assault operation against French resistance forces concentrated on the Vercors Plateau around La Mure to the south of Grenoble.
21 Jul 44: transported into the target area this date aboard 22 DFS 230 gliders towed by Do 17s that belonged to I./LLG 1, the operation concluded on 27 July with a reported 639 partisans and 201 civilians killed. Kampfgruppe “Schäfer” lost 22 killed and around 44 wounded. The operation was rife with atrocities, most of which were committed by Vichy militia and SD from the Lyon Gestapo headquarters and so-called Osttruppen that belonged to the Army. However, Schäfer’s men did not escape the postwar accusations and this caused an unfortunate stain on the Luftwaffe’s usually clean wartime record.
Aug 44: transferred from Lyon to Nancy during the first few days of August and then to Meaux near Paris. The Kampfgruppe was heavily engaged during the withdrawal from France, and in early September it was the last German unit to leave Luxembourg.
Sep 44: removed from KG 200 in mid-September and reassigned to the 1.Fallschirmarmee (1st Parachute Army) as Bataillon “Schäfer”.
15 Nov 44: the Staffel apparently still had a non-paratroop rear echelon (Restkommando) and this was renamed 16.Staffel/KG 200.
[Sources:
Kannapin-FpN; Dierich-VdL; Tessin-Tes; Günther W. Gellermann-Moskau ruft Heeresgruppe Mitte (Koblenz: Bernard & Graefe Verlag, 1988); P.W. Stahl-KG 200 – The True Story (London: Jane’s, 1981); G.Thomas and B.Ketley – KG 200: The Luftwaffe’s Most Secret Unit (Hikoki Pub. Ltd, 2003); M.Holm-website www.ww2.dk.]
JUNGWIRT (JUNGWIRTH?), Hans. (DOB: 05.05.14). (R, DKG). 03.43 Hptm., appt Kdr. I./ Jäger-Rgt. “Hermann Göring” (to 17.04.43). 01.04.43 Hptm., awarded DKG, I./Jg.Rgt. HG. 17.04.43 appt Kdr. Fallschirmjäger-Rgt. 5 (order rescinded). 21.02.44 Maj., appt Kdr. II./KG 200 (to c.11.07.44). 16.01.45 appt Kdr. Fsch,Aufkl.Abt. 12/II. Fallschirmkorps. 02.45 appt Kdr. Fsch.Jg.Rgt. 32 (a.k.a. Fsch.Jg.Rgt. Jungwirth?) (to c.04.45). 09.05.45 Maj., awarded Ritterkreuz, Kdr. Fsch.Aufkl.Abt. 12. †23.11.77.
SCHÄFER, Friedrich. (DOB: 12.08.19). (R). 01.08.42 promo to Oblt. 00.44 appt Staka 1.St. of II./KG 200. 24.10.44 Oblt., awarded Ritterkreuz, Stafü 4./KG 200. 01.12.44 promo to Hptm. †02.09.92.
--LarryComment
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gliders
Hello,
The info as given by Larry is only partially correct on the glider subject.
21.07.1944: 21 DFS 230 glider planes did land
22.07.1944: bad weather - no glider landings
23.07.1944: 22 DFS 230 + 2 Go 242's glider planes did land.
24.07.1944: 1 Go 242 did land
The DFS230's did belong towards the I./Luftlandegeschader 1 (=L.L.G.1), the Go 242's did belong towards the I./L.L.G.2.
4 of the glider pilots where killed during this mission + a few wounded (no exact numbers known on the wounded glider pilots)
Cordial greetings + i hope it did help.Comment
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Thanks a lot gentlemen. I got the death notice of Peter Knab a Fallschirmjäger who died in Vassieux during the battle.Comment
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S.D. wrote:
What you wrote on the gliders for 21-24 July is probably 100% accurate and your contribution is very much appreciated by me and I am sure Christof. I have all three of the books I cited plus a photocopy of Geoff Thomas' very detailed manuscript on the entire Vercors operation, plus several articles on it that have appeared in Jet & Prop and other magazines, plus the Luftflotte 3 KTB for the month of July 1944. I wasn't trying to detail each day's operations so I omitted those for 22, 23 and 24 July.The info as given by Larry is only partially correct on the glider subject.
However, I would like to ask that you and every one else start getting into the habit of citing your sources when posting detailed historical information, just like they do on Wikipedia and many other discussion forums. By doing so, you lend credibility to your information. Otherwise, we don't know where the details came from or whether it is accurate or not. It also allows others to use the cited sources for further research on the subject. This policy is in force over on Axis History Forum and we need to do here, too. I always try to remember to do it myself, although I do forget sometimes. It's not necessary to do it with every post, just those where very specific details are given. I hope you will agree with this.
Thanks again and regards,
--Larry
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Vassieux
Hello Larry,
No problem + i am certainly a big fan of referring good works as only then a fellow historian can do also a research.
My source on The Vassieux mission is the book from my friend G.Schlaug, Die Deutschen Lastenseglerverbände 1937-1945', ISBN: 3-613-01065-8 + also a Lw. Glider legacy wich is in my possesion
Cordial greetings,Comment
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Thanks, S.D. Then there appears to be a slight disagreement concerning the name. Was it called "Bataillon Jungwirth", Kampfgruppe "Schäfer" or both? This had made me curious because Georg is usually right (he is my friend, too), so I am going to use all of the sources I have to see what I can find out. I have his Lastensegler book, too. It will give me something to do today. If there is still a conflict between sources, then either your or I can e-mail him and see what he says.
Best,
--Larry
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Vassieux
Hello Larry,
the caption about "Bataillon Jungwirth" is on page 213 from the book.
I must sauy that in all my past glider contacts 2 gldier missions are very hard to find and especially find a veteran who is willing to talk about it, these are namely :
* Vassieux
* Drvar
I think the nature of the mission is the cause of this, they where both anti-partisan missions and it is equally very hard to find a legacy of a glider pilot who did participate toward sthese missions.
Cordial greetings,Comment
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Hi S.D.,
Here is the information so you can decide for yourself:
Gellermann, Günther. Moskau Ruft Heeresgruppe Mitte: Was nicht im Wehrmachtbericht stand - Die Einsätze des geheimen Kampfgeschwaders 200 im Zweiten Weltkrieg. (Koblenz: Bernard & Graefe, 1988).
Professor Gellermann covers the Vercors operation in Chapter 6: Die Kommandotruppen im KG 200 – der Einsatz im Vercors (pp.104-09). He repeatedly and exclusively refers to it as Kampfgruppe “Schäfer” and never as Bataillon “Jungwirth”. He cites correspondence with Friedrich Schäfer and Arnold von Roon as well as the personal diary of Maj. Dr. Fritz Stormer, a Stabsoffizier in Stab/KG 200, who accompanied Kampfgruppe “Schäfer” as his sources. In footnote 14 on page 106, Dr. Gellermann also says according to the Luftflotte 3 KTB and to Arnold von Roon, the initial assault occurred on 22 July and not on 21 July as stated by Georg Schlaug, and that it was under the command of Oblt. Friedrich Schäfer and officially called Kampfgruppe “Schäfer”. For the duration of the operation, Schäfer came directly under Luftflotte 3 and not under KG 200. He says this is all very clearly stated in the surviving documents. It should be noted that Gellermann’s book was written in 1988, three years after Georg Schlaug’s book appeared in 1985. He also shows on p.213 that Maj. “Jungwirth” left II. Gruppe on or before 11 July, 10 days before the operation began, and had nothing to do with it after the initial training in Germany that was completed at the end of May.
Geoffrey J.Thomas and Barry Ketley. KG 200: The Luftwaffe’s Most Secret Unit (Crowborough (East Sussex): Hikoki Pubublications Ltd, 2003). Thomas devotes 12% of his book to the operation (pp.100-24) and provides enormous detail. These 24 pages are identical to his manuscript entitled, “Air Operations Over the Vercors”, 27 pages plus a map and three pages of footnotes. He begins by stating that Maj. Hans Jungwirth got into a disagreement with his Geschwader Kommodore, Oberst i.G. Heinrich Heigl, during the first days of June and was relieved of his command and dismissed from KG 200. He was replaced on 11 July by Hptm. Günter Hurlin. He next shows that the KG 200 specially trained, volunteer Fallschirmjäger unit was officially given the tactical designation Kampfgruppe “Schäfer” on 8 June 1944, more than a month before the Vercors operation began. It was never called anything else. These volunteers were all Fallschirmjäger-Bewährungstruppe (probationary troops) from a depot at Tangerhütte where they had been assembled after committing minor disciplinary offenses. Few of them had combat experience. They were then put through three months of intense training as 9-man glider assault sections at Dedelstorf. Finally, departing from Gellermann regarding the date the operation began, Thomas very decisively states that it commenced on 21 July and not 22 July. In addition to correspondence with Friedrich Schäfer and many other unpublished and published sources, Thomas cites a detailed postwar interrogation of Obstlt. Kurt Randel-Semper, who was the Ia (operations officer) of KG 200 at the time of Vercors, Namentliche Verlustmeldungen (casualty reports) for II./KG 200 for 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25 July 1944, OB West Tagesmeldungen (daily reports) 21-26 July 1944, The Gellermann book and the Schlaug book.
Conclusion: the evidence clearly shows that Kampfgruppe Schäfer is correct (and not Bataillon “Jungwirth”) and that the Vercors operation commenced on 21 July 1944.
Regarding the nature of the mission, personnel from the SD/Gestapo Aussenstelle in Lyon accompanied the Fallschirmjäger in the assault and committed some pretty horrific atrocities within view of Fallschirmjäger after landing. On the first day, they captured two men from the resistance and interrogated them. The French SD interrogators tore both eyes out of one of them and cut the tongue out of the other. They were then slowly hung from a tree with the tips of their toes just touching the ground. That is probably why the veterans do not want to talk about it.
Regards,
--LarryComment
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Vassieux
Hi Larry,
Very good information and thanks for that
, it is quite often that names of commanders are still used for the simple reason that that person was more known then its replacement by the actual troops.
I was rather certain that our friend Georg was correct when he stated that the mission started at 21/07/1944.
Now a new booksearch does start for me to get to know more about that mission.
For me the glideraspect is of large importance and i am always in a search to ID the gliderpilots who where involved in this mission. => Larry: do you know iff any of the book besides the one fro Georg does go into detail with this aspect? For example are the losses written down anywhere in detail ? As i would like to find out besides KIA gldier pilots howmany where wounded, etc ....
Cordial greetings,Last edited by Stijn David; 11-26-2007, 12:24 AM.Comment
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S.D. wrote:
First, sorry for the long delay in getting back to you. The video card in my computer went bad late Friday, 23 November, and I had it in the repair shop until today.Larry: do you know iff any of the book besides the one fro Georg does go into detail with this aspect? For example are the losses written down anywhere in detail ? As i would like to find out besides KIA gldier pilots howmany where wounded, etc ....
The Geoff Thomas book has details on the day-to-day losses for Kampfgruppe Schäfer, but these are just given as numbers and not names. He has a lot of detail on the Vercors operation that you would find interesting.
Gellermann, on the other hand, covers Vercors in just a couple of pages and there is little detail.
Hope that helps!
--Larry
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losses
Hi Larry,
Thank you for the reply. Better a later reply then no reply
Could you give the losses (numbers) as for the day 21.07.1944?
I would especially be interested to know the KIA and wounded soldiers. And it will be time for me to obtain that book as written by Geoff.
Cordial greetings,Comment
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Originally posted by Stijn David View PostHi Larry,
Thank you for the reply. Better a later reply then no reply
Could you give the losses (numbers) as for the day 21.07.1944?
I would especially be interested to know the KIA and wounded soldiers. And it will be time for me to obtain that book as written by Geoff.
Cordial greetings,
Hi S.D.,
For 21 July:
"The Daily Operations Report (Tagesbericht) of OB West recorded Kampfgruppe Schäfer's casualties: 22 killed and 29 wounded - a 23% casualty rate." The total enemy killed was claimed as 220 resistants by all German forces engaged (not just KGr. Schäfer).
[Thomas: p.113].
--LarryComment
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