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**beaviso** · 11-01-2007, 08:00 AM

Originally posted by polux View Post

To end, I can only advise you the reading the very interesting Mr. Franz W. Seidler's work, "Die Militärgerichtsbarkeit der deutschen Wehrmacht 1939-1945", Verlag S. Bublies, on 1999. This book would have to interest the persons who are interested in the disciplinary unities of the German army. A chapter is reserved for the troops SS (...)

Polux,
How about SS-Bewaehrungs Regiment Kaltofen, raised in Jan.1945 in Danzig area? At least one of its bataillons consisted of Danzig-Matzkau prisoners. I have an eye-witness report saying that this particular bataillon was a penal unit.
Does the book mention that Regiment?

Brgds,
Michal

**F L Clemens** · 11-01-2007, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by andrewb View Post

That's right Ludwig and so they should. They fought bravely and died for their country.

If you wish to believe that about your uncle, don't let me stop you. However, let's not get carried away in some romantic fantasy of war and soldiers. In a draftee army of millions there are quite a number who don't fit the image of a model soldier. Among them there are absolute filth who you can never close your eyes on - that's one reason that punishment battalions existed.

And when you talk about the soldiers in an army under a totalitarian regime, don't forget that the parents of some of those soldiers are in concentration camps or have already been murdered by the government. They are not honored by having the symbol of that government over their graves. They died unwillingly serving a criminal regime.

In many cases, we will never know the circumstances of every soldier, but let's be a little more realistic about them - they were a mixture of the best, the average, and the worst of their society. The uniform does not change the truth of humanity.

**peter u** · 11-01-2007, 11:03 AM

Hello,

Good points F L Clemens!

P

**F L Clemens** · 11-01-2007, 11:16 AM

Thank you. No disrespect meant for andrewb. Just a reminder that when we react against the general depiction of German soldiers as criminals, we should not swing too far in the other direction and imagine them all as noble, if misused, warriors.

That goes as well for soldiers of the West. We don't like to see all US soldiers painted with the brush of Abu Ghraib, but let's face it - the soldiers of Abu Ghraib were Americans in uniform.

On a personal note: I learned this lesson about scum in uniform early in my US Army basic training when a fellow trainee stole the firing pin from my rifle while I was looking away because he had lost his. I certainly will never salute his service to the nation - and would love to have seen him end up in SS Bew.Einheit 500!

**polux** · 11-04-2007, 05:43 PM

SS-Bewährungsbataillon 500

Hello,

For Michal,

With regard to this unity, no information in the book that I quoted. Nevertheless, this unity is mentioned in the Mehner's book " Die Waffen - SS und Polizei 1939-1945 ": SS-Bewährungs-Rgt. Kaltofen. The unity carries the name of his commander, Hansheinrich Kaltofen. Not of other preciseness.

This unity is also mentioned in the Tessin's and Kannapin's book " Waffen-SS und Ordnungspolizei im Kriegseinsatz 1939-1945 ". No preciseness if it is about a disciplinary unity but mention of the FP nr attributed in March, 1945, is 36 042 , 37 189, 38 131 and 39 177.

Cordial greetings.

Polux

**Larry deZeng** · 11-04-2007, 07:17 PM

Hi Polux,

Time for an English lesson. Although your English is excellent, please go to an on-line English dictionary and look up "unit" and "unity". When referring to a military formation, regardless of whether it's an army, a corps, a division, a brigade, a regiment, a battalion, a company, a platoon, or a squad, the word to use is unit, not unity. Read the many thousands of posts here written by native English speakers (Brits, Americans, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, etc., etc.) and you will see that they all use unit. There is a big difference in usage between unit and unity.

I am just trying to be helpful here.

Thanks,

--Larry

**polux** · 11-05-2007, 08:51 AM

SS-Bewährungsbataillon 500

Hello Larry,

Thank you for your message. My knowledge of the Shakespeare's language is reduced and I use a computer program to translate my texts. I well took note of your justified remark and I am going to try to make use of it.

Cordial greetings.

Polux

**F L Clemens** · 11-05-2007, 09:03 AM

"Ignorance is the curse of God, knowledge the wing wherewith we fly to heaven"
Henry VI, Act iv, Sc.7

**andrewb** · 11-05-2007, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by F L Clemens View Post

If you wish to believe that about your uncle, don't let me stop you. However, let's not get carried away in some romantic fantasy of war and soldiers. In a draftee army of millions there are quite a number who don't fit the image of a model soldier. Among them there are absolute filth who you can never close your eyes on - that's one reason that punishment battalions existed.

And when you talk about the soldiers in an army under a totalitarian regime, don't forget that the parents of some of those soldiers are in concentration camps or have already been murdered by the government. They are not honored by having the symbol of that government over their graves. They died unwillingly serving a criminal regime.

In many cases, we will never know the circumstances of every soldier, but let's be a little more realistic about them - they were a mixture of the best, the average, and the worst of their society. The uniform does not change the truth of humanity.

I don't wish to believe, I know it to be true. I am well aware of the horrors that war brings and the regime that my 3 uncles fought under but my uncle in the penal batl. was there because he was a drunken fighter thats all.

While you point out the fact that Nazi Germany was a criminal regime, was Stalin any better? Russian commanders were shot purely because Stalin considered them a threat to his regime. And lets not forget the Katyn forest massacre where 15000 odd Polish POW's were murdered by Stalin in 1940 and for almost 50 years the world condemned Germany for it. My Dad who was a Russian soilder captured by the germans pleaded with the Americans in Salzburg not to return him to the Russians at the end of the war because he would be shot. He and other Russian POW's actually retreated with the german guards as they abandoned the camp in 1945 as so not to fall in Russian hands. I could tell you more about what my Dad told me but then the Russians didn't lose the war so it doesn't matter.

I don't want to go on about it and besides, this discussion is in the wrong section but the horrors of the Nazis are unforgivable and those responsible were dealt with accordingly. The small few tainted all of the good german people including my mum. As German soilders MY uncles fought willingly for what they believed in and did it bravely. My last remaining uncle in Vienna told me so and that's no fantasy.

Regards,
AB.

**Eric Queen** · 11-05-2007, 09:31 AM

SS-Bewährungs-Abteilung stempel

Attached Files

SS stamp.JPG (14.2 KB, 338 views)

**Larry deZeng** · 11-05-2007, 09:34 AM

Hi Polux,

That's the spirit! We all learn new things every day, even at my age. My tip was meant to help and I sure hope I didn't cause you any embarrassment.

Best wishes,

--Larry

**Larry deZeng** · 11-05-2007, 09:40 AM

Hi AB,

Good points! I would just like to add that as bad as the German Bewährungseinheiten were, their Russian equivalent was even worse. The Russians used their penal units ahead of the first infantry assault wave to clear minefields by running across them. Very, very few of those posted to a Russian penal unit survived more than three months. If they were still alive after triggering a mine, they were left to lay there or shot to put them out of their misery. No medical care was afforded them. So serving in one was a virtual death sentence.

--Larry

**andrewb** · 11-05-2007, 09:54 AM

Why doesn't that surprise me Larry??

I rest my case.

Regards,
AB.

**F L Clemens** · 11-05-2007, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by andrewb View Post

I don't wish to believe, I know it to be true. ...While you point out the fact that Nazi Germany was a criminal regime, was Stalin any better? ...

Don't misconstrue my post as an insult to your uncle or as praise for Stalin.

My point was that not all soldiers are honorable and not all soldiers felt honored to be wearing the uniform they had on - so blanket statements honoring everyone's service to their country may not be so appropriate - especially for the soldiers of a punishment battalion under a totalitarian regime.

**polux** · 11-05-2007, 12:22 PM

SS-Bewährungsbataillon 500

Hello,

For Larry,

No problem for me Larry. I have the same philosophy that you

For Eric,

Very interesting stamp. Can you indicate the date to which this stamp was affixed ? I think that it must be about a stamp used at the beginning of the SS Fallschirm Jäger Btl. 500.

Cordial greetings.

Polux

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