KM rangliste question

[Simon O.]

I recently got hold of a copy of the '44 KM rangliste. Just for practice i browsed through a few dealers sites looking for officers promotion docs and tried to match them up with entries in the book.
I did find a couple of docs at one dealers site where the officers named on the docs were not present in the book. Now i know the book indicates officers who had died so the question is. If the name of a KM officer on a document does not appear in the rangliste does it mean the doc is a bad one?


Simon

[bhholst]

Hello Simon.
Reading the referred to Rangliste I understand that only those officers who died in action and were recipients of the Knights cross are listed .
Also I further understand that only regular officers (career officers) are contained in the Rangliste but not reserve officers or (d.Res.) or similar (z.V.) Also ommitted are such officers who were discharged prior to the Rangliste date for several reasons such as disabilities, overage etc
Therefore I would not automatically consider a document to an officer whose name does not appear on the Rangliste as an invalid one .
Bernhard H. Holst

[Denis]

Hello
For the specific Kriegsmarine Rang Liste (I have the 1944 reprint), there are definitively more officers than the dead ones or the or RK recipients.
I have not the book with me but Bernhard has probaly right : the list might cover only career officers.
Regards
Denis

[Simon O.]

Many thanks for clearing that up guys. I didn't realise reserve officers were not listed. Thought there were rather too few.


Regards

Simon

[Denis]

However, if it's the case, the rank on the diploma would have to expressely specify the mention "d.R."
Am I right ?
So, what happens for a diploma where the concerned offcer doesn't seemingly belong to the reserve and neither mentioned on the KM rangliste ? Definitively a fake ?

[Simon O.]

Ok, here's an example.
One Beförderungsurkunde i noticed was for the promotion to Fregattenkapitän effective 1 Dec. 1943 of one Günther Georgii. No d.Res and he certainly doesn't crop up on the volksbund search engine of war dead.

Another strange one is for the promotion to Kapitän zur See of Friedrich Wilhelm Wentzel on the 1 Oct. 43, the only officer of that name in the book was promoted Korvettenkapitän 1.6.43.



i'm not trying to 'out' potential fakes here, just learning how to better use the tools of our trade so to speak.

[Glenn2438]

Wentzel

Simon,

I can help with Friedrich Wilhelm Wentzel. He was a bona-fide Kapitän zur See promoted as such on the 1st of October 1943 but was placed on z.V. (zur Verfügung) status on the 31st of December 1943 and that is why he is presumably not listed with the active officers in the 1944 Rangliste. His brief biography appears in "Die Deutsche Kriegsmarine 1939-1945" by Lohmann and Hildebrand.

Günther Georgii was certainly on active duty in WW1 retiring as a Kapitänleutnant a.D. on the 28th of July 1920. Again probably z.V. status in WW2 and not listed with the regulars.

Regards
Glenn

[Simon O.]

Thanks Glenn, That's helped a lot. Now i know that z.V. at least does not appear on promotion docs and i've gained a better grasp on how to use the book.




Object of the exercise achieved, knowledge increased a notch

[Rick Research]

Yup, welcome to the Wonderful World of Retreads.

Actually I have noted a widespread dropping of suffixes dR dL etc in all three branches of service from mid-WW2. I have a 1943 award document in a group to a Major dR zV and it just says "Major."

Friedrich Wilhelm Wentzel was born 9.7.1885. In 1937 he was a retread Korvettenkapitän zS (E) with seniority of 1.4.29 #2. Seniority, again, had nothing to do with REAL service... it was a way of "equalizing" over the hill officers for future promotions. Wentzel was alive in 1963, "Kapt zS aD" in Kiel.

Günther Georgii was born 21.1.1884. He too left the service with seniority that would have gotten him recalled in 1939 as a KorvKapt zS zV, so the usual one promotion for zV officers seems correct here. He was a farmer in Schaumburg bei Schalkau in 1937.


Lots and lots of information is available on ex-Imperial officers from a number of other sources, such as the periodic directories of the Naval Officers' Association (MOV/ MOH).

[Glenn2438]

titles

The mobilization order actually abolished the suffixes of personnel recalled to active service. Officially therefore the suffixes d.R., d.L., z.V., z.D. were no longer necessary or valid. According to John R. Angolia, however, the suffix d.R. appears to have reappeared into general use from 1942 onwards. However as Rick points out, I think that there was probably widespread deviation from the correct practice throughout the war! That being the case one would find documents both with and without the suffixes.

Regards
Glenn