Greece 1943

[werner geier]

dear group,
for a while now i have this set of pics which i cant identify. what can be deducted from the images: an Artillery unit, equipped with l.FH and RSO is transported from Wischau training grounds via train to Athens and from Athens by ship to Patras, where they arrive in early August 1943.
is there a specialist among you who might know which artillery units were present at this time in Greece?
thanks, werner

[werner geier]

2

[werner geier]

3

[Ypenburg]

This way it is almost impossible to see something. Aren't there unit-markings on the vehicle's/guns??

[werner geier]

dear ypenburg,
i just included the pics to give you guys a rough idea of the pic lot. there´s nothing in the photos that would help to id the unit except the backside captions with the locations i already stated. i hoped to filter some info from the OOB for Greece, Summer 1943. judging by their equipment it has to be a unit that was raised sometimes between April-June ´43, most likely a le.Art.Abt (RSO).

[Aris Kosionidis]

Two candidates...

Mr. Geier,
There are two candidates, based on the time frame you have indicated: the Art.-Rgt 670 of the 117. Jager Div. and Panzer-Art.-Rgt 73 of the 1. Panzer Div. They were the only divisions in the Peloponese at the time.
I'd think that Panzer-Art-Rgt 73 is more likely. It was stationed around Patras (according to H.F. Meyer's "Von Wien nach Kalavryta"), and the RSOs are more likely for a Panzer formation than a Jager-Div. The II. and III. battalions of Pz-Art-Rgt 73 were equipped with tractor-towed (mot.Z) 10,5cm leFH., so it could be them.
The main reason I assign some probability to this being Art-Rgt 670 is the precise timing. The 117. Jager-Div. motor vehicles, proceeding in a single big column from Yugoslavia to Greece, were ambushed and destroyed in late June 1943. Replacements arrived in August 1943, which would agree with the arrival date on the album. The Division had been converted from 717. Inf to 117. Jager in Yugoslavia, which does not agree with training in Wischau.
I don't have a history of the 1. Pazer-Div. handy, so cannot add any more hard data to this, but I'd say there's a roughly 90% chance it's them, the 10% chance for the 117. Jager-Div solely based on the time of arrival.
Hope this helped.

Best regards
Aris Kosionidis

[Simon O.]

RSOs are certainly something you'd see in a Jäger division, also note that the unit includes the hf.711, not really a vehicle mix i'd expect to see in the artillery regiment of the 1 Pz.Div.
In addition, according to Nafziger in "The German order of battle:Infantry" OKH reported in Sept.43 that III./A.R.670 was equipped with Le.F.H.18 towed by RSOs.

[Aris Kosionidis]

RSOs are certainly something you'd see in a Jäger division, also note that the unit includes the hf.711, not really a vehicle mix i'd expect to see in the artillery regiment of the 1 Pz.Div.
In addition, according to Nafziger in "The German order of battle:Infantry" OKH reported in Sept.43 that III./A.R.670 was equipped with Le.F.H.18 towed by RSOs.

Hmm..there's probably still time to change my original position..."I was always convinced this was Art.-Rgt 670". :-)
Seriously, good catch on the Hf711. And in 1943 the Sdkfz 11 would be a more logical choice in a Panzer Division. Still that leaves the slight point of the training/forming grounds not agreeing with what H.F. Meyer includes in his well-researched "Von Wien nach Kalavryta". A possible explanation could be that these are replacements for the vehicles and guns lost in June '43, so could originate at a different location.
An unrelated question: does Nafziger's book include Sonderverband 287 and it's follow-up units, Grenadier-Rgt 92, PzSpahKie 468 etc.? Thanks in advance.

Best regards
Aris Kosionidis

[Larry deZeng]

Regarding 1. Pz.Div., I have its unit history by Rolf Stoves in which the Division’s period in Greece is covered on pages 411-22. Not all of the Division moved to Greece from France, but those components that did had the following locations July – September 1943:

Div.Stab in Kokoni (not located but possibly present day Kiaton) to the west of Corinth;
Rgt.Stab and II./Pz.Rgt. 1 in and around Nauplia (Návplion)/NE Peloponnesus;
Pz.Gren.Rgt. 113 in the Trípolis (Tripolitsa) in central Peloponnesus;
Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1 in and around Patras (Pátrai)/NW Peloponnesus;
Rgt.Stab and II./Pz.A.R. 73 in and around Kokoni;
I., III. and IV./Pz.A.R. 73 were located in Nauplia, Trípolis and Patras to support the Division’s Kampfgruppen located there (Stoves does not say which Abteilung was in which location);
Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 1, elements of Pz.-Jäger-Abt. 37 and the mass of the Division’s service and support troops were all billeted in and around Corinth.

All Stoves has to say about Obstlt. Söth’s Pz.A.R. 73’s equipment is just that it was expanded to four Abteilungen and made self-propelled while in France during February to May 1943. He speaks of “4 Zugmaschinen” per battery, these being supplied from Germany after 31 January 1943. On 11 and 12 May 1943, I.(sf.)/Pz.-A.R. 73 is noted as having been equipped with two le.Fh.Bttrn. (“Hummel”) and one s.Fh.Battr. (“Wespe”). There is no mention of Wischau in his account.

HTH,

--BHS1956

[werner geier]

dear aris, dear simon, dear bhs,
thanks very much for all the valuable info, especially as i´m quite weak in all things OOB. the circumstance that the pic lot came from a viennese dealer and before that most likely out of a austrian household points at a unit raised in Wehrkreis XVII. additionally to that the vehicles show a unit emblem (sadly blurry) which reminds me of the vienniese "Rathausmann" a famous iron standard-bearer that guards the City Hall atop a 97 metre-high steeple. the figure also seems to carry a shield in the colours of Vienna?
btw, in what way does H.F. Meyer's "Von Wien nach Kalavryta" relate to Vienna?
best regards, werner

[werner geier]

dear group,
still puzzling about this case. does that "B.G" marking on the Stahlfeldwagen eventually ring any bells with you?
thanks, werner

[Simon O.]

Hi again Werner

the 717 ID (117 J******228;g.Div) had WK XVII as it's home wehrkreis, "Von Wien nach Kalavryta" is a book on the division's history. However that emblem doesn't appear as one of those known to have been used by either the 717 or 117. That being said, there's still a great many unit emblems that remain unrecorded and unattributed, if we're looking at photos taken soon after or around the time the division changed from 717 to 117 perhaps we're seeing a shortlived variant? I can certainly see no relation to the 1 Pz.Div.

Can you show us an enlarged scan of the center photo in the first post? the group of men in the photo directly below the gun.

[werner geier]

simon,
here´s the pic, but i´m afraid there is not much info to gain from except a glimpse on a "fesche Soldatenbraut". re. Truppenkennzeichen: i wouldnt be surprised if Art.Rgt. 670 had/kept a unique emblem,
dont you think?
w.

btw, did you get the Gebirgsjäger pic i mailed you?

[Simon O.]

The photo doesn't really help too much, a pity. I thought they might have had mountain boots or jäger insignia.

I agree, as a divisional artillery regiment it shouldn't really have it's own emblem. Yes, i got the photo you sent, thanks it's always interesting to see unusual photos like that.

[werner geier]

i´m still musing about the fishy parts of the 117 Jäg.Div puzzle: Wischau, no sign of Jäger outfits, the unit emblem. being stuck here, the Jäger/Balkans connex helped me to id a different pic in my collection. the handwritten caption was hardly legible and for some reason i had attributed it to Italy. Greece/Albania in mind it clicked, caption reads: "Nov. 43, Korca". Korca is a town in southeast Albania near the greek/macedonian border, i guess that makes 100 Jäg.Div. a strong contender, which operated in that area and timeframe during the occupation of the country.
the pic´s quality is rather poor, but note mountain boots and the ghost of a Jäger armpatch on the left trooper.
w.