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    #1

    Retired Pilot Juncker but with unknown setup ?

    Dear Collectors,

    I bought this badge many many years ago from a wifes vet, which sold his brought back stuff of WW2. His collection went over the website from daniels ww2.

    However after the years I brought it back to light and like to ask about your opinion. I know that there are several discussions before about a S&L setup (which in my opinion comes closest to mine missing one), but in my case it's a good second Juncker with the weight of 24 gramm and correct sizes. Also the swastika is not cut out.

    I'm also not sure about the material

    Please have a look ...
    Attached Files
    Last edited by fliegerass; 08-24-2017, 02:19 PM.
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      #3
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        #4
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          #5
          It's not an S&L - the design is Juncker and this badge is for sure zinc by the looks of it!

          It's a real shame the setup is missing as that would greatly aid determining originality.

          From these pictures I would suggest this is a zinc Juncker produced badge- not ever seen before that I know of.

          This is quite the discovery in my opinion! It may assist in lending some credence to some of these being produced later in the war. It is my belief that some of the S&L examples do date prior to 9th may 45

          Thanks for showing this piece

          Comment

            #6
            Well that is something new!!!! I heard before of retired juncker in zinc but never saw one before. For me it's a good Juncker Retired second patternl made of zinc. The look catch plate is IMO the same which is found in later Juncker product with the C square catch on the round catch plate. The hinge soldering trace shows the later square hinge. Both are typical zinc Juncker. The attached picture show what it should look like. The finish also match later other badge from Juncker factory. Hard to imagine which pin between a round or wide pin was in place on this variant. So these were awarded later in the war than expected until now, fantastic!!!

            Great thread thanks for showing it.

            Seb
            Attached Files
            The German Luftwaffe Pilot and Combined Pilot and Observer Badges of WWII 1933-1945
            Volume I & Volume II

            sigpic

            Now Available
            www.luftwaffepilotbook@gmail.com

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              #7
              Looks very believable to me as well. Definitely Juncker, not S&L. The details look good and the bubbling of the finish would certainly suggest its a zink badge.

              I am surprised that there is no trace of wear on this badge, yet the hardware has been ripped off. But as Seb says, the hardware and finish look like what I would expect from an original zink-based Juncker product.

              I also don't see any problems with thinking that Retired Pilot badges were made from zink. Some makers started using zink in 1941 (and probably earlier!), so just because something is made from zink doesn't make it "late war" IMO. Especially in this case, where it appears that there might be a copper coating under the finish, which is something Juncker did earlier in the war right when they switched to zink. Later Juncker badges don't have this coating.

              Tom
              If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

              New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
              [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
              Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

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                #8
                It does of course make perfect sense for there to be a higher demand for this award later in the war as more pilots were injured and could no longer fly operations.

                I would guess from the setup that this piece would date 1943-44 before Juncker were bombed out. The contract for these badges was then available for S&L to offer up a suitable replacement . Some of these were found on the early post war barter boards which were dated to 1946.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Patrick W View Post
                  I would guess from the setup that this piece would date 1943-44 before Juncker were bombed out. The contract for these badges was then available for S&L to offer up a suitable replacement . Some of these were found on the early post war barter boards which were dated to 1946.
                  Juncker was bombed out in Feb 1945. Ludenscheid was taken over in April 1945, so doesn't leave much room for S&L as a maker. Also the fact that there is no evidence to support the notion they made this badge, other than the fact that it has been found once or twice on a postwar souvenier board.

                  Tom
                  If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                  New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                  [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                  Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                  Comment

                    #10
                    That would be why they never made it to award stage but having been identified so early post war is I think pretty strong evidence that they were made by S&L in the closing months of the war. All the pieces on these series of boards are in my opinion left over wartime stock.

                    That is unless you believe that S&L produced new dies and recommenced production in 1945-6? I don't.

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Patrick W View Post
                      That would be why they never made it to award stage but having been identified so early post war is I think pretty strong evidence that they were made by S&L in the closing months of the war. All the pieces on these series of boards are in my opinion left over wartime stock.
                      Possibly Patrick. Or a mixture of wartime leftovers and new strikes of badges they didn't make in the war. Dies in production at the end of the war but not used yet.

                      Originally posted by Patrick W View Post
                      That is unless you believe that S&L produced new dies and recommenced production in 1945-6? I don't.
                      I do.

                      But collectors and dealers can believe all we want, we just don't know for sure one way or the other. Bottom line is we don't know. Originals were made for only a few short years, the fakers have had the rest of the last 70+ years so there are alot more fakes out there than originals.

                      That is why it is good policy to say something is wartime original only when we have verifiable proof backed up by alot of evidence. Everything else is suspect.

                      Tom
                      If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                      New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                      [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                      Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                      Comment

                        #12
                        What a wonderful zinc version of this very rare badge!

                        Its a real treat to see something that in 50 years of collecting I have never seen before

                        Stan

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                          #13
                          Thank you very much for all your kind and helpful words.

                          Seems there is new history on the market

                          Bert

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post
                            Possibly Patrick. Or a mixture of wartime leftovers and new strikes of badges they didn't make in the war. Dies in production at the end of the war but not used yet.



                            I do.

                            But collectors and dealers can believe all we want, we just don't know for sure one way or the other. Bottom line is we don't know. Originals were made for only a few short years, the fakers have had the rest of the last 70+ years so there are alot more fakes out there than originals.

                            That is why it is good policy to say something is wartime original only when we have verifiable proof backed up by alot of evidence. Everything else is suspect.

                            Tom
                            Precisely....sometimes we just don't know. Sometimes we never will know. Which way the arrow of doubt should point in such cases is a very individual matter. Not one to be dictated when we are in a gray area.

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