Vet Lot w/Round Pilot's Badge!

[Calvin Hall]

Awesome find!

Please post photos of the cloth German Cross when time permits.

[mwl]

There are other possibilities unfortunately. Its possible the vet picked this up in 1950 or 1960 as a souvenier. So it could certainly be a postwar-made piece. That is why it is important to document as much as possible about the vet. If he left europe before May 8, 1945 then that is EXCELLENT information that helps push this badge into the wartime category IMO. Unfortunately it sounds like the vet has already passed away, so we won't really know for sure when he picked this badge up. Even if his service record says he left in May 1945, it is still possible he picked this up in the 1960s somewhere as a souvenier, swapped it with other vets over the years, etc.. We just can't be sure of anything when it comes to vet stories, especially when the vet has already passed.

Tom

This is the scientific way, even though boring, we have to stick to it... For future generations of collectors it is of utmost importance!
Regards,
Mats

[DougO]

For what it is worth, I had Geoff at Golden Arrow pull the vet's service records. He arrived back in the U.S. on the 6th of November, 1945 and was discharged on November 11th.

[Brian S]

So are these also German Boy Scout Badges? Come on now there is a mix of stuff in this box. Proves nothing... If you want to believe you can always find a reason. This just is not proof of anything other than here's a round pilot in a box that came from somewhere at sometime. This is not a "vet story" this is a box of stuff from his estate that has been added to over the years as the boy scout stuff proves.

[DougO]

Brian,
I did not say that this 'proves' anything. Some who responded in the thread thought it would be useful to know, so I had Geoff look it up and I posted the information for your consideration as you and others judge these badges.
If you believe as I do, that all of the German items in his estate were picked up by him at the end of the war and that he was not a collector (as was indicated by the family), then it might be one more support point for these badges being wartime produced.
Doug

[Brian S]

You said he was there through October 1945. GI's were very hungry for souvenirs. I have two parents who were there and the demand for anything Nazi was almost desperate for the servicemen stationed there. I think it takes a lot more than this to point to any positive information. You got some excellent items there. What has been identified as war produced is war produced anything else is a gee whiz look at this. Not trying to fight with you or call you any names or put words in your mouth. Just trying to cool down the desperation here to call these war time. Nothing, nothing has indicated these are war time.

[skip]

Could we please see some better shots of the other war badges. Especially the two transporter clasps would be nice, the Obs as well maybe when you have time.
Thanks.

[Gary B]

I don't think anyone is calling these wartime. Tom's analysis in other threads is basically stating IF these Round pilot badges are wartime Juncker production pieces there is only one type of these badges that "forensically" match what would be compatible with Juncker WWII production methods/parts. The other tpye of these badges is 100% fake and does not match any currently known wartime manufacturing technique/company etc. So...dismissing one type and leaving the door open for the other pending future "proof" or facts that dismiss it.

Short of a picture in wear (and that does not prove anything except one was produced and worn) the task becomes more and more difficult of proving anything regarding these badges as the vets and people who produced badges who might possibly shed light on all TR items are passing away daily.

Cloth Wound Badges:

Believers: Found in several German and US vet groups
Non Believers: Could have been added post war. US vets were hungry for souvenirs.

Non Believers: No pictorial evidence in wear
Believers: No pictures since the patches were made late in the war and no one would have worn them due to being so ugly

Believers: Regulations creating cloth wound badges in lieu of metal wound badges until shortfall can be made up was found
Non Believers: Regulations authorizing "creation" of a badge is not the same as authorizing production/distribution.

Other controversial pieces: higher awards of the Small unit action patch/badge, Bakelite wound badges (supposedly found at Stalingrad)

I think we have 3 possibilities for these badges:

1) They are all postwar/fantasy pieces.
2) They are all pre 45 (I think we can conclude this is not the case based on some we see which we know are in no way pre 45)
3) There are some original pre 45 pieces (i.e. the ones with the Juncker type hardware) that have been copied by the pieces we have seen & clearly identified as repros.

Even if the detailed forensics study shows that the round wreaths "follow" the progression of the Juncker badges nothing definitive can be concluded from that study. We might have more "evidence" but nothing solid.

It might be that we will never have a definitive answer and one will have to be comfortable drawing their own conclusions and deciding if he/she wants one in their collection and, if so, what price are they willing to pay for that risk.

Gary B

[DougO]

You said he was there through October 1945. GI's were very hungry for souvenirs. I have two parents who were there and the demand for anything Nazi was almost desperate for the servicemen stationed there. I think it takes a lot more than this to point to any positive information. You got some excellent items there. What has been identified as war produced is war produced anything else is a gee whiz look at this. Not trying to fight with you or call you any names or put words in your mouth. Just trying to cool down the desperation here to call these war time. Nothing, nothing has indicated these are war time.

Brain,
No offense taken. I think it is good to be skeptical in this hobby. This GI was definitely in Germany until Oct. 1945, so he could have picked up some post-war souvenirs. But, based on Tom's work, you would need to believe that after the Junker factories had been destroyed, they were able to get back into production in just a few months, utilizing all of the same Junker hinge, pin, catch, tools (see tooling mark detailed in Tom's post), etc. to make these badges. Just seems highly unlikely to me.
Given the bombing, it would be reasonable to assume that much if not all of that stock/tooling may have been destroyed. Do we see such hardware/tooling marks on other post-war badges? To say that 'Nothing, nothing has indicated these are war time' is just not accurate IMHO.
Doug
P.S. Well stated by Gary B above. I agree that we may never truly know.

[Thomas Durante]

You said he was there through October 1945. GI's were very hungry for souvenirs. I have two parents who were there and the demand for anything Nazi was almost desperate for the servicemen stationed there.

No doubt about this Brian, I agree 100%.

If you take the vet story at face value (and why shouldn't we since all other badges in there are 100%, textbook original late-war badges), and that he left Europe in October 1945 with this round wreath pilot badge, then you can only conclude that someone created the round wreath pilot badge only for souvenir trade within 5 months of the end of the war. That is, someone produced a brand new, round-wreath die from scratch, simply for the souvenir trade.

Not impossible, but I find that a pretty unlikely scenario so close to the end of the war in May 1945. Especially in an area of Germany like Berlin, where Juncker was located. I think it is more likely in areas that weren't touched by war, like Ludenscheid (i.e. S&L), but Berlin was a different story right after the war.

Tom

[Brian S]

Tom, "the box" was not a time capsule. It was not sealed in October, 1945 and recently opened. In fact, I was a Boy Scout, but no more, and those boy scout items are not old. There is no way to know when that pilot badge hit the box. He may have been a member of the local VFW and picked up a few items, unless he left a detailed diary in his own hand of what and when then we know nothing other than it's a box of stuff. Some very nice items yes and boy scout stuff and other clearly post war, post retirement items.

As for the striations in your thread, have you done a "bullet" test? Under a microscope lined up the striations to show they "came from the same gun"? And then of course we still don't know "when the gun was fired" but it at least would show the same Juncker artisan fired the shot.

Lately there has been a flurry of if it's "similar" it must be good. That's a 180 turnabout from where this Luft forum has been for the past 17 years.

All kinds of "theories" around this thing. One was it was for the ladies. Just because Reitsch had a one of a kind award doesn't mean the other ladies had to have a "round" badge. Reading an interesting biography and a sister in law is mentioned more than once. She did not have a zink round pilot badge. Ever heard of Melitta Schenk Gräfin von Stauffenberg?

Is this badge possible, anything is possible. Will it proven? As the years go by and the eye witnesses die it becomes less likely. Treasure troves of letters and diaries will be discovered but nothing to now on any round zink badge. And with so many of these things floating around it really is threatening to the future of these.

[tystgaard]

Badge

Have no one tried to ask living Luftwaffe pilots
if they remember something about round pilot
badges. I know very few are alive today, but this
discussion have been going on for years.
The same of the snipers badge, it would have
been interesting to learn if the old veterans
remembered something.

BR
Nicolai

[tmca05]

All I can say is that ....I'm JEALOUS !
I wish I could run into a haul like that