Ehrenpokal Advice Please!

[tinsonant]

Good Evening Everyone,

This is my first post here and really I was looking for some advice and reassurance. I recently purchased an 835 silver Ehrenpokal from a local auction and wanted to know what everyone though. I have shown it to a few people most of which said it was great but one said he was sure it was a fake. Now some of the other guys said they didn't make fakes or the fakes were so bad and this one is virtually perfect. As far as I can tell it is the right weight and height with the right method of construction, it has the right fonts and engravings etc. The only thing that looks slightly wrong is one of the parts of the silvermark which seems to have been struck poorly. This one (if genuine and I whole heartly believe it is) was given to Hauptmann Heinrich Setz who has 138 confirmed air victories mostly over the eastern front. I or Google can supply a lot more information on him if needed.
Basically can someone please help me either put my mind at rest or confirm that it is indeed a fake so I and the auction house can have a serious chat.
Hopefully by following this link you can find some pictures of the goblet.

http://s58.photobucket.com/user/Anth...?sort=3&page=1

Many Thanks in advance for everyones comments.

Anthony

[chrisje110]

The pokal is wonderful piece, you have nothing to worry about ! One of the best I have seen here in some time, you dont see 138 kill cups coming alround often !

The only sidenote I want to place is that after there are stories of unnamed (original) cups which could be easy engraved with whatever name you want. I saw one of these unnamed cups for sale somewhere 7+ years ago but I lost the pictures when my old computer crapped out. I would not worrry about this to much, because engraving in the old style is not that easy to do.

Great cup from a great pilot !

[Thomas H]

Hi Anthony,

Welcome to the forum.

Sometimes we can live with, or even want something that isn't textbook. When it comes down to goblets, especially one awarded to a fighter ace and holder of the oakleaves I tend to prefer textbook.

You already mentioned the Silver content mark. My concern are:

1) first time that I see it above the name.
2) it is different from all the 835 stamps on goblets I have seen. Not just poor struck.

My second observation is the engraving. To me it look very sloppy for a 1941 goblet. I know it is done by hand and by different people, but this is not what I expect to see on a early goblet.

The goblet itself looks otherwise good to me.

Maybe all point can be explained and I'm just seeing bears on the road.

Regards, Thomas

[chen]

I concur with Thomas' view.
The 835 marks, even the fonts style, is weak and strange. Pl. compare to a genuine one.
The lettering is weak in engraving.
The goblet itself looks good, but Chrisie110 makes a good point, is it done to an un-engraved pokal?

[tinsonant]

Thanks very much for all the input so far.
Clearly it's not a cut and dried yes or no answer.
I know there is a badly engraved letter in the name but I would think that could be explained easily enough by someone having to rush or having a bad day etc. The fact that the font is exactly right and also it has the same level of tarnish as the rest of the cup leads me to believe that part is of the time period.
The silver mark on the other hand is just odd. If you were going to go to the trouble of engraving a name on a piece almost perfectly in the right font wouldn't you also make sure the silver mark was spot on? This one is so far off that it doesn't make sense that a skilled faker would do something so bad.
Do we think it could be possible that Wagner was potentially experimenting with new hallmarking methods which failed or maybe even a student was asked to mark the piece and used the wrong dies?
I guess the only way to know for sure is to put it in a much more professional auction and see what the market thinks of it. The price would tell us what we need to know.

Once again thanks for the information

[chen]

I guess this pokal was opened up at some time and a new name band was added. Of course, no idea who did it, by faker or Henrich.
But most troubles me is the hallmark.

[skalphunter]

IMO the goblet looks ok but about the engraving i have my serious doubts. skalp

[chen]

BTW, way or down , not that importance to me.

[chrisje110]

Chen his pictures point it out very good, it really seems the name band has been "worked on"

The goblet itself is for me a clear original, but re-engraved.

[Gene]

That's some seriously sloppy engraving; can't say I've ever seen anything like it before. Especially how the date was executed.

[chen]

Perhaps the pokal is Alpaka but sand-off and then replaced with weak strike of that 835 mark. But need to inspect under high power magnification.

[Thomas H]

Perhaps the pokal is Alpaka but sand-off and then replaced with weak strike of that 835 mark. But need to inspect under high power magnification.

My thought too. Just told a friend about this option.

Good to see that a the stamp above or below is no problem. Learned something

[Tim O.]

I only have a few Goblets in my collection but I would share the concerns of others that this one looks wrong with regard to proof mark and engraving of the recipient's name. The idea of this being a converted Alpaka is interesting - there do seem to be rubbing marks under the strange proof mark.

From the photos I also think this could be a re-engraved original. I guess a simple test would prove if it is silver but I don't like that proof mark at all. Too many doubts for my comfort.

Good luck with resolving this Anthony.

Best wishes
Tim O.

[Brian S]

Cut apart along leaf lines and put back together. By a drunk.

[Brian S]

Also see torch marks.