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    #31
    Originally posted by Sebastien T View Post
    The bomber clasp with the flat wire catch is assmann as per the thread you posted but they can be found on FLL as well like the flak below.
    Hi Seb,

    If I'm not mistaken, the clasp you call the "Assmann" in the other thread is the same type being discussed here but with the different catch. That's why Tom was saying he used to think they were made by Assmann, but now has backed off on that idea due to lack of sufficient evidence.

    But you're right, that flat-wire catch on Tom's clasp looks very much like the one you showed on the FLL Flak badge.

    Best regards,
    ---Norm
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Norm F; 10-24-2015, 07:27 PM.

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      #32
      Originally posted by Norm F View Post
      But you're right, that flat-wire catch on Tom's clasp looks very much like the one you showed on the FLL Flak badge.
      Same catch and same hinge as the FLL-attributed Flak, just different main pin...
      Attached Files

      Comment

        #33
        Upper arm of swaz on Tom's and Jen's looks different. But I have the same one as Tom's in silver and it does look like Jen's. Maybe Tom's somehow finished differently... Even the finish to the bomb the same as Tom's. More tombak looking.

        Comment

          #34
          Originally posted by Brian S View Post
          Upper arm of swaz on Tom's and Jen's looks different. But I have the same one as Tom's in silver and it does look like Jen's. Maybe Tom's somehow finished differently... Even the finish to the bomb the same as Tom's. More tombak looking.
          Hi Brian,

          Yes, you're on to something. I've made some comparisons using two examples of the round-wire catch version (Frank Heukemes' and Jens') and Tom's two examples of the flat-wire catch version. When you look closely, you can see that the flat-wire catch version has some reproducible die flaws in the edges of the oak leaves and the swastika (marked in red).

          Everything else about their construction says they're the same maker, so I suspect the unflawed variant 1 with the round-wire catch is the earlier run and the flawed variant 2 with the flat-wire catch is a later run.

          Best regards,
          ---Norm
          Attached Files

          Comment

            #35
            Variant 2: You don't need mine but I'll post for anyway for maybe that special view that reveals somthing xtra.

            I also find it interesting that these Var 2's bomb finishing seems to be wearing in a predictable manner. Mine is silver by the way.
            Attached Files

            Comment

              #36
              Catch and pin end finish details.
              Attached Files

              Comment

                #37
                Hi Brian,

                Interesting that your Variant 2 seems to lack the flaws of Tom's two examples. Perhaps the flaws developed late in production and yours was from before they had developed.

                Regarding the finish, for what it's worth, the FLL-attributed Tombak Destroyer and Minesweeper badges also didn't hold their finish well at all.

                Best regards,
                ---Norm
                Last edited by Norm F; 10-25-2015, 11:11 AM.

                Comment

                  #38
                  And the case it came in.
                  Attached Files

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                    #39
                    You can see the flaw developing.
                    Attached Files

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by Brian S View Post
                      You can see the flaw developing.
                      Hard to say. There also seem to be some variable cracks appearing here and there which is interesting since you can often see random cracks in the FLL-attributed Tombak Destroyers.

                      Best regards,
                      ---Norm
                      Attached Files

                      Comment

                        #41
                        That's what is without question the difference between so many fakes and the real deal on pilots, observers, are the various crevices etc. in the wreaths. Each one different. As Timmler says, "each a piece of art".

                        Comment

                          #42
                          Pretty obvious FLL made these specially when I looked at my FLak to compare them. And yes Norm I should say was pretended to be Assmann...

                          Nice one Brian, more suitable case IMO but Im sure some came in that box before switching to zinc pieces.

                          Seb
                          The German Luftwaffe Pilot and Combined Pilot and Observer Badges of WWII 1933-1945
                          Volume I & Volume II

                          sigpic

                          Now Available
                          www.luftwaffepilotbook@gmail.com

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                            #43
                            Originally posted by Norm F View Post
                            If I'm not mistaken, the clasp you call the "Assmann" in the other thread is the same type being discussed here but with the different catch. That's why Tom was saying he used to think they were made by Assmann, but now has backed off on that idea due to lack of sufficient evidence.
                            Hi guys,

                            At the time I wrote that Assmann thread in 2010, all these clasps I had on file had flat wire catches. They are pretty rare in their own right so I only had about 8 or so on file, and all had flatwire catches except for the Frank Heukemes' example, which had a round wire catch. Since there was only 1 example, I thought it might be an anomoly or even a repair, especially since you can see the pin on Frank's example is upside down so I wasn't sure if it was messed with or a legitimate variant. Over the years, a few more of these round-wire catch variants have come to light so it became clear that we have a legitimate variant and the connection to Assmann may have been a little premature. Especially with all the good books that have come out in the last 5 years, like the EK1 books and Kriegs books which are excellent in showing all the different reverse hardware setups used by each makers. I started to rethink the Assmann connection.

                            And now this clasp shows up with a typical FLL carton, and combined with Norm's excellent observation on the tool mark at the base of the round wire catch (great work as always Norm), I think we can really put the maker of these clasps squarely on the shoulders of FLL.

                            The rivet doesn't remind me of FLL, but even that was an iffy connection to Assmann for me. Yes, the round shape is very similar to what Assmann used, but the problem here was that Assmann didn't start using that round, flat shaped rivet until mid-war (1943 or so IMO). Whereas these clasps are always made from tombak with good quality finishes, and are quite rare suggesting they were made early and for a very short timespan, probably stopping way before 1943.

                            There is no question that both flat and round wire variants were made by the same firm. You can even find the leaf flaws on the earlier, round wire variants as well which should eliminate any lingering doubt that both were made by the same firm. Here is a round-wire variant that I have on file with the flaws.

                            Nice work guys, great thread.

                            Tom
                            Attached Files
                            If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                            New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                            [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                            Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

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                              #44
                              Great stuf here guys, Learning everyday !

                              Comment

                                #45
                                Hi guys,

                                Looking through my files again this weekend, I found another piece of the puzzle. Here is one of these clasps that Phillip Militaria had on their site a few years ago. It is marked FLL, but I have never seen another like it and at the time I chalked it up to probably being a postwar-applied mark to increase its value. Could be legitimate marking after all, glad I kept pics of it

                                Tom
                                Attached Files
                                If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                                New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                                [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                                Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                                Comment

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