Cased BSW ROAG unmarked-???

[AFF96]

Boy oh boy, when I 1st saw the "bubbles"a fake screamed out. We should take a look at the measurements & compare to a known good one.
Otherwise everything looks good to me as well.

[JJS]

I am uneasy about this badge, and it wouldn't sit in my luft collection. As Tom notes, there are casting pits in the wreath, and the badge is unmarked. It also has an unusual two-tone dark coloration on the reverse of the eagle. To me this looks very suspiciously wierd. So that's three strikes (or at least two and a half if you forgive the lack of a maker mark).
The hardware and the rivets on the badge look perfect however, and so as Tom notes, if this is a fake, then whoever faked the hardware is a master .... and they plunked their fake into an original mint case.
My approach would be this: since there are so many original ROAGs out there, why opt for a questionable one?
Personally, I'd walk away from this badge.
JJS

[JJS]

One additional concern I have about this badge is the appearance of the reverse side of the wreath. To my eye it looks like it was altered post-manufacture with an artificial, "applied" patina.
So that makes four red flags for me.
JJS

[J Temple-West]

Too many red flags.....and what happened to the right wing?

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Looking thru my files at other BSW badges, I found a few pilot badges that have what seem like similar cavities in the wreath. So was this a production fault that sometimes happened with BSW badges......or are is Seb exactly right and we are looking at a really good fake ROAG here?

Tom

[JJS]

Additional information with additional pictures.
Hope I will get more opinions.
Thanks,
Andrei

Weight - 31.7gr
Wreath ht. - 53.8 mm
Wreath w. - 40.7 mm
Distance between wings - 44 mm
Hinge length - 16 mm

To a first approximation, these measurements appear in line with known originals; see pages 232-233 of Stephen Previtera's book as a reference.

But here is yet another red flag: look at the 7 o'clock position on the reverse of the wreath. What is that??

[Sebastien T]

Tom like you I couldn't believe this was a fake either and the cavities on the wreath make me feel casting. The new pictures give better justice one the eagle details and it look better but I still not sure about it. I still find rivets bigger than usual and the hinge smaller than what I have but might be just a picture effect. Showing the cavities on your 2 pilots showned that it might be a caracteristic of BSW even if they are usually high quality. Being unmarked don't discard it but i don't remember seeing an unmarked BSW badge. Dimensions and weight are spot on doh!!! I really can't fix my mind with this one.

Seb

[Jos L C]

Hmm, if the wreath was cast it would also show at the back ..
Looks more like dirt that was trapped inside the die and left some tiny holes.., have seen it on Juncker badges also, a P/O was so bad, that the eagle's chest and head almost lost all detail..

Not a cast piece IMO.

Jos.

[andrei1774]

Hey guys,
first of all, I would like to say thanks for your opinions and thoughts.
This one is hard to me too and the reason, why I posted this badge for discussion, just to verify in discussion is this original badge with cavities on the wreath or very good made fake. And that's exactly what we want to know as collectors, do not toss good piece out , thinking it is a fake.
Badge is in my hand and everything looks good (by the way , sorry for my pics, I need buy new camera) measurements, silver finish, rivets, etc., except this cavities on the wreath, but after I saw Tom's PB pictures, I getting more on original side.
On the reverse at 7 o'clock and on the back of the eagle was some sticky substance, which I carefully removed with acetone. IMO, this explain difference in discoloration.
Andrei

[andrei1774]

Too many red flags.....and what happened to the right wing?

Nothing wrong with the right wing IMO. Just different angle of picture. Here is another view.

[Bagel]

Is it common for BSW badges to have the line on the reverse where they line up the hinge? I thought that most of these "high quality" badges didn't leave such deep / obvious hinge guidelines.

When I first saw this bird I thought it looked awful and had a hard time believing that it was legit. The pits on the wreath didn't help matters, but after seeing all the different pics and opinions, I don't know what to think. I know I would buy the case in a second but have no interest in the badge. I briefly thought that maybe someone put a good eagle on a cast / replacement wreath as a "repair", but that doesn't seem likely.

[Rich G]

When I first saw it I immediately felt it was original. I have seen that kind of pitting in wreaths before and not just BSW. I think it is just a flaw in the base metal or something and not because it is a casting.

Rich

[JJS]

Hey guys,
first of all, I would like to say thanks for your opinions and thoughts.
This one is hard to me too and the reason, why I posted this badge for discussion, just to verify in discussion is this original badge with cavities on the wreath or very good made fake. And that's exactly what we want to know as collectors, do not toss good piece out , thinking it is a fake.
Badge is in my hand and everything looks good (by the way , sorry for my pics, I need buy new camera) measurements, silver finish, rivets, etc., except this cavities on the wreath, but after I saw Tom's PB pictures, I getting more on original side.
On the reverse at 7 o'clock and on the back of the eagle was some sticky substance, which I carefully removed with acetone. IMO, this explain difference in discoloration.
Andrei

Andrei:
Can you post a new scan of the reverse now that the sticky substance was removed?
I remain skeptical whenever I see what looks like applied patina....sort of like the way a fake suntan doesn't bode well for the person sporting it. To my eye, your badge looks like it was artificially aged with a spotty job of thinned paint.

[Brian S]

Hardware and especially rivets are too perfect for my eyes to be a fake.

Could someone have used a corrosive to clean the badge and it caused those pits? Wreath perhaps different metal compound than eagle and the wreath reacted badly to cleaning agent?

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Another point that I would throw out here is the fact that we don't really see any convincing BSW fakes. Unlike Juncker and Assmann, BSW badges don't seem to be faked to a large extent and when we see a fake BSW badge, its usually very poorly done with many, many differences to originals. Especially when it comes to BSW ROAGs, they seem to have avoided being faked to large extent most likely due to their rarity. So when I see a badge like this that is so perfect in so many ways, I just have a hard time believing its a fake when all other past attempts have been so far off the mark.

Great discussion so far guys.

Tom