Deumer Pilot Observer Badge

[mmiller]

I need some opinions here, on the authenticity of this Deumer Pilot-Observer badge, which was sent to me 'on approval'. I respect the present owner as he is well known and has found me many highly desirable items in the past. He is not trying to force the badge down my throat. It's up to me, and I can take as long as I like.

I have studied the badge and have formulated some opinions. I'd like to hear your ideas first.

What I will share are the 'specs':

1) Weight- 45.3 grams
2) Wreath- 52mm (high) X 42mm (wide)
3) Eagle wing span- 66mm
4) Swaz- 12mm
5) Hinge- 14mm long; 2.5mm diameter

Also of note, proper 'C' style catch, blunt tipped pin, and proper rivets (which [unfortunately] have been damaged by hitting them with the improper tool and technique, in an attempt to tighten the slightly loose Eagle).

The Hallmark did not scan sharply. What I can say about the Hallmark is that both lines begin and end above each other. The S in Ludenscheid looks like a backward 2. The top of the oomlaughs [sp?] are even with the D in Ludenscheid.

Thanks!
Mark

[Lorenzo Brown]

Hi Mark. It has the characteristics of a Deumer. I compared it to my Deumer pilot badge (you know the one!) and it looks almost identical...although there appear to be minor differences. Notably, the wreath looks a little different and the swaz on your appears bigger. But the bird design and feather fletching look very much the same. Differences could be due to the scans, finishing or wear. Overall I like the appearance of yours.
Here are the specs of mine:

1) Weight- 44.5 grams
2) Wreath- 53.1 mm (high) X 43.3mm (wide)
3) Eagle wing span- 65.2mm
4) Swaz- 11.3mm
5) Hinge- 14.2mm long; 2.5mm diameter

[Tony Barto]

Hi Mark;

It looks like a great piece to me and appears to have a lot of character to it especially with the condition of the back of it.

[Rich G]

Mark

It looks good to me.

BUT... I'm a bit suspicious of the rivets... can you be sure that it hasn't been tampered with? By that I mean having been taken a part to refinish it from a pilot to a pilot/observer?

Sorry, I'm always suspicious when I seen rivets have been tampered with.

Rich

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Mark,

Looks ok to me in general although I prefer the ones with a more matte, what I call lemon yellow gilting. The ones like this example you show here (espacially when the rivets are not untouched) COULD more likely be a regular pilot badge gone gold after the war.

One question though: Why is the silver finish matte/white-ish on the reverse and darker/polished/shiny (also in the crevices) on the obverse? Shouldn´t this be in any case the same or is it ALL gone on the obverse?

Cheers, Frank H.

[Tim Calvert]

Hi Mark,
This badge is good IMO. As far as it possibly being
refinshed into a P/O, its hard to tell. Have you gotten
out the paint thinner??

Another interesting thing about this badge is
that it was assembled and finished by Deumer,
but he used a Juncker eagle and wreath.

There was a period where a few badges were
put together by Deumer using Juncker parts, I assume
before Deumer had his own dies made (which he certainly did).

In the early days Wilhelm was very meticulous and really put a
lot of work and time into finishing off his badges very nicely.

My theory is that somebody noticed his excellent craftmanship
and asked him to make them a pilot's badge (or a P/O). Being
meticulous (anal), Wilhelm bought his parts for the project from
Juncker as they were probably the most respected firm at the
time and were producing some beautiful badges.

Although Deumer was in Ludenscheid and Juncker was in Berlin,
shipping parts would not have been a problem as this was quite
early and the Luftwaffe still enjoyed air supremacy, unlike in '44.

I think Willy liked the results and decided to get his own dies for
pilot badges made up.

The Deumer pilot is definitely up at the top of my favorites list. I
have two like Lorenzo's that I consider to be "textbook" (they are
made with Deumer's eagle and wreath on their own dies) and
one like Mark's that was made with Juncker's eagle and wreath,
but show all the typical Deumer characteristics (hinge, hallmark,
cut-out, clasp, flat spot on the hinge, scoop behind the hinge,
large rivets, etc.)

The textbook Deumers have a very thick wreath. Here is a shot of a textbook
Deumer on the left and the Deumer made with
Juncker parts on the right. Notice the similarity in the style of the
clasps, which is also similar to Deumer's EK I clasp. Also notice
the thickness of the wreaths.

[skip]

Excellent clarification on this difficult subject. Thanks very much for the great infos Tim.

Skip

[Tim Calvert]

Hi guys,

Here is a shot of a "textbook" Deumer on top, made from
Deumer's dies, and a Deumer made using Juncker's eagle and
wreath, on the bottom.

Can you see any differences?

[Bryan Poon]

Tim, EXCELLENT!! Whateve the badges or the information

BP

[IVAN]

Hi,

Tim, really new informations for me and very interesting!!

Rich, not often but sometimes the winner during the war they filed away the rivets to equal of the wreath, you can see in this adress too of our friend Luckas:

http://www.ww-2militaria.com/b/badaw...kpara_desc.htm

Regards

Ivan

[Mark S.]

I also saw that on Peter's site. Beautiful badge in every other respect. It looks like someone took a wire wheel to the back of it. You can see the erratic wheel patterns on the eagle especially.

[R v Kempen]

You can see the erratic wheel patterns on the eagle especially.

what is an erratic wheel pattern??

Richard van Kempen