The Juncker Unqualified airgunner

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

I really like Patrick's observation about the heat signature around the hinge and catch, and the fact that it affects the black finish. I think he is exactly right in that this is something I would expect to see when the hardware and solder is still warm when the finish was applied, giving it a different look than the rest of the badge. I don't think we would see that if the badge was painted after it left the factory (or 70 years later to make a regular AG into an UQAG).

With that said, I still can't get my head around the black finish on the rivets. I just happen to believe strongly that the eagle was put on as the absolute last step. This is supported by the vast majority of Juncker products we see, from prewar years up until the end with both Luftwaffe and Heer awards. Even on their late war #PABs and #GABs, there is never any finish on the rivets. This makes logical sense because their Luftwaffe eagles and wreaths were two different colors and finishes, so it only makes sense that they were finished separately then rivetted together as the final step.

If the eagles were rivetted on first, then finished as Patrick has theorized, then I think we would see examples where the black finish got on the back of the eagle. Think about how careful Juncker would have to be to make sure only the black finish got on the wreath, but didn't get any on the eagle. And vice versa, they had to make sure that the silver finish only got on the eagle, but not a trace on the wreath. Think about how tightly they fit together, I think it is impossible to not get any overspray on the other! I just don't think that is practical. The rivetting must have been done as the last step IMO.

So where does that leave us? We like the black finish on the wreath, seems legitimate with the tide mark and the fact that it is pretty consistent on the few known examples. I also like the look of the silver finish on the eagle on most of these (excluding Brian's, since I feel his is refinished). So really the only issue to resolve is the black finish on the rivets. Is it possible that the dark we are seeing on the rivets is not finish at all? Maybe it is just some discoloration of the rivet itself that turns black. If the rivets have the same silver finish as the eagle, then perhaps it is the silver finish tarnishing?

Tom

[Patrick W]

Thanks for the comments Brian and Tom. Tom having thought further on your point about the application of the eagle being last, I have looked minutely at this badge and you are quite right there is not a scrap of black finish evident anywhere on the eagle and the finish on the wreath goes beneath the rivetted areas so I think you may be correct in what you state- here are some closeups from which this is quite clear....

[Patrick W]

so that still leaves us with the finish on the rivets- and me still scratching my head.

The finish is 100% black and darker actually than the black of the wreath

My initial thought was that the pin was attached last and then painted over black separately (this would logically be the very last thing done and we know this from unfinished badges found from a number of manufacturers- Deumer, S&L), and for whatever reason the person finishing the pin dabbed some finish over the brass rivets.

Studying the right hand rivet I have had to dismiss this as incorrect. As youi can see in the attached photos, the tide mark comes right up to the point of the rivet- had the rivit been 'touched up' following the attachment of the eagle to an already blackened wreath, I would expect there to be interference or obvious overpainting to the tide mark in this area, as the badge by this point would have been cold. As you can see that is not the case, the tide area is completely untouched by additional finish, yet the rivet is black

[Patrick W]

By a process of elimination then that leads me to the following conclusion which I do think is the correct one and it combines both Tom's thinking and my own...

All brass hardware components- hinge, pin, catch and rivets received a separate black finish prior to assembly of the badge.

So sequence of assembly would be as follows..

- Pre-blackened hinge block and catch are soldered to plain zinc wreath

- Wreath and solder areas are painted over black whilst the wreath is still warm leaving the evident tide marks in the finish.

- Separately silvered eagle is then riveted to the wreath using rivets that have a black coating.

- Blackened pin is then attached (of note also there is no trace of any black to the brass hinge pin indicating it is likely that the hinge block and pin were already blackened prior to assembly).

Also the rivets on this badge and the near mint example on eMedals show a larger loss of black finish to the rivets than I would expect when the contact points of the hinge black and catch do not- this could be down to finish removed by the rivetting device at time of production. It would not then take much wear for these rivets to revert to plain metal I'm sure.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Patrick,

I think we are on the right track here, and your last post is exactly the production process I believe Juncker went thru. And I agree that the finish loss on the rivet head was due to the rivetting tool. Its not from normal wear, and this is something we see quite a bit on other Juncker Luftwaffe badges. Here is a closeup of a rivet from an early aluminum Juncker Para badge, clearly showing that the rivet was finished in gold with the rest of the eagle, but the rivetting tool took off the gold finish from the top of the rivet revealing the silver aluminum base metal.

So really the only question is why would Juncker apply a black finish to the rivets? I see no logical reason for this, but it must be the case. A little mystery left to solve, but all in all I think we have made a good discussion here. Thanks Patrick for the interesting topic.

Tom

[Brian S]

Is the eagle black under the silver final finish? If so rivets may have been attached entire eagle blackened with rivets attached?

[Patrick W]

Interesting photo Tom, thanks for posting that- I think me may have cracked the mystery here!

Brian, the does look dark but it appears to be the zinc base metal as it is lighter than the wreath, also there is no transfer of any silver finish to the black wreath which I would expect if the eagle were painted over last following a complete black finish to the badge.

[Brian S]

Yeah I totally get that the wreath and eagle were separately painted and the eagle applied last after painting. I was wondering if the eagle was also painted black then silver. Painting the rivets separately just seems odd to me.

[Sebastien T]

Very interesting discussion guys.

Seb

[Jos L C]

From what I see ..

The black on the wreath, you all call it paint, but is it ..?
The black on the rivets isn't the same stuff as on the wreath IMO.

Jos.

[Patrick W]

Hi Jos

Regarding the points you raise- I think the finish applied to the metal hardware and rivets is different to that of the wreath, as you rightly point out. It is noticeably darker and I think the adherence qualities to smooth brass or copper would need to be substantially different to those for zinc as zinc is slightly porous.

I do believe the finish was painted on as on the first badge posted the swaz was clearly left blank. The pics attached are of a badge I used to own on which the swaz was finished black also, probably just a whim or error of the person on the production line. The only other versions of UQAG badge that I know of and believe to be authentic are the well documented Deumer; the Assmann; and the FLL (one example known)- all of these IMO were factory painted black.