More badges "made" by Juncker than we know?

[Philippe DB]

Dear Philippe,

I agree that the hollow Tombak PABs of the former so-called Zimmermann design are devastating to the theory that these PABs could have been made by Juncker IF we assume the "Porsche" PABs are the Juncker made ones.

so called "Porsche" design = Juncker made does certainly make sense, since these are the earliest nickel silver hollow PABs and official articles in 1940 (along with Klietmann) point out that the first PABs were made of nickel silver and by Juncker. These are facts (first ones made by Juncker, in hollow form and made of nickel silver).

Dear Frank,

Yep absolutely, but this goes further if we accept the above we also know the first nickle silver "Juncker" IAB. I'm confident that you agree with me that that beauty doesn't have anything in common with the "Juncker Project" IAB in this thread either.

KR
Philippe

[Frank Heukemes]

I absolutely do agree. But it is also strange that zinc massive PABs with the "Porsche" design do NOT show a reverse setup style which could be related to Juncker in any way. So there remains a question mark.

[anguspm]

Great info Frank!

I´d be interested to see a word for word translation of that document:

Not being 100% familiar with the German language I'd like to know if the word "die" was used or "design". To my mind (and working in engineering) I'd of expected to see Juncker drawing up the specifications and drawings which would then be licensed? After all different dies, made of different materials, are required for producing badges of different materials. Hence the question of "die" or "design"?

[Philippe DB]

I absolutely do agree. But it is also strange that zinc massive PABs with the "Porsche" design do NOT show a reverse setup style which could be related to Juncker in any way. So there remains a question mark.

Correct nothing in the set-up points towards Juncker. Everything that came after the Nickel Silver variants shows a very high degree of standardisation be it on hollow (buntmetall & zinc) or on the very rare massive zinc variant. Same goes in fact for the IAB although I still have to find a massive zinc variant of that badge.

KR
Philippe

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Angus,

It says Juncker will create "Musterabzeichen" = sample badges. In the last chapter it says companies should refrain from acquiring tools, because "Normalstanzen" can be ordered from Juncker after the sample badges have been made. Now I do not know how to translate Normalstanze, in fact I do not even 100% know what it is exactly. By definition of the word, it definitely is a production tool (not a design), that is for sure. If it could be a word which is used as an equivalent for the English "die", I do not know. A "Stanze" is in normal understanding a big tool for stamping out things. "Normal" in this context would rather mean "norm" (setting the norm) as opposed to "normal" (regular).

[Hans N]

Hi Frank,

this is a very interesting find and most impressive information that changes many old discussions and collectorbooks. A real change of History for the collectors at the least.

I´d say that "Normalstanzen" would be Normstamp or Motherstamp that the companys copied and manufactured the badges from. The "Normalstanzen" is not the die used to make the badges but the mold that was used to make the dies from as i understand it.

Or did i get it all wrong

[Marc Garlasco]

Hans,

Very interesting. If this is the case that could explain why you would have several things look the same with minor differences due to cooling issues, the die getting older and having hairline fissures, etc.

Marc

[Hans N]

Hans,

Very interesting. If this is the case that could explain why you would have several things look the same with minor differences due to cooling issues, the die getting older and having hairline fissures, etc.

Marc

Hi Marc,

it´s the only possible and logical explanation i come to regarding the "Normalstanzen".

[skip]

Great research again Frank. I bet you had fun digging this one up and looking through all those old magazines.

I´m not going to get involved in the discussion as to which badge is from which firm. I think its pretty academical anyway as its practically impossible to prove which unmarked badges came from which firm. Still interesting reading all the comments here though.

As to the "Normalstanzen", I would translate this as "Standard Die". In other words the other companies could buy the standard die from Juncker when they were eventually ready with the manufacture. Quiet possibly they never even made it to the point were they got to sell these standard dies to other companies.

Skip

[Frank Heukemes]

When exactly was Juncker bombed out, do we have an exact and confirmed date?

And an additional question: As the war got into Germany, there are some articles in those magazines about companies that were bombed but rebuilt and continued production. Do we know if Juncker definitely and absolutely ceased to produce after the bombing?

[Dave-B]

The content of this very interesting thread rang a few bells,check out this link http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=Juncker+1944


Cheers

Dave

[Marc Garlasco]

From Jamie Cross:

"If we go back to the story of the Firm of Juncker we know that the factory was bombed and that the production of Knights Crosses was stopped. It was also assumed that the dies for all of the war badges were also destroyed, the anti partisan for one, but it would appear that the Army Paratroopers badge eagle survived the war, as did the Luftwaffe pilots wreath."

So why does he hold some survived and if they did were they the ones that were these standard dies?

Marc

[Frank Heukemes]

@Dave:


Indeed, Gordon has posted the very same article in the Crosses section in a discussion about RKs. If I may, i will have tio stress that he has made one mistake in his announcement right above that article. Nowhere does the article mention that this rule is nor NEW war badges (which Mark Schroeder also suggested). This rule was made because designs and sample badges of makers that started to produce ANY (old) war badge around that time (for the private purchase market only) failed permission because of quality and design matters.

A subtle difference, but important for understanding this article in the correct way. This is not about the Balloon Badge!

[Robin Lumsden]

It's also not beyond the realms of possibility, even in the Third Reich, that the regulations published by the LDO were not strictly adhered to by all and sundry. As the saying goes, 'rules are for fools and are used as guidance by wise men'. I've often wondered about Juncker being bombed out as well. This seems to have been repeated ad infinitum since Klietmann. The maker of the APB was bombed out, the maker of the Warsaw Shield was also conveniently bombed out......etc. etc. There's no doubt that many Nazi factories were destroyed, but isn't it funny how being 'bombed out' always seems to coincide with a controversial badge design change or something being touted around as having come from a 'pre-bombing' die strike? Just my twopenceworth.

[Frank Heukemes]

7th October 1944 was the 50th birthday of Juncker´s general manager Helmuth Napp. The article about his birthday celebrations, in which a couple of sentences are mentioned about his work for the blooming firm of Juncker, does not say a peep about any bombing of Juncker. So when was it supposed to happen?
Even in the January 1945 issue of the Deutsche Uniformen Zeitschrift, which seems to have been the last one, still no mention of any problems with Juncker (while bombings of other firms actually were mentioned once in a while).

This would leave many months for that LDO order to take place. I think it is too comfortable to believe nothing has happened in 8, 9 months.