S&L Pilot

[Leroy]

I also have the "feeling" that these hollow-backed eagles had their genesis in late war designs. Whether those designs actually made it beyond die creation and trial strikes to actual production is something which remains unsure. Certainly, if they were late war, the concept was resuscitated postwar.

[JJS]

Hi JJS,

Did Detlev ever elaborate on supposed vet groupings that he found this type of Pilot Badge in? I am relatively young to the hobby, so I don't know what Detlev sold before 1996. But in the years I followed his updates (from around 2000 to his retirement a few years ago, I don't recall him every selling a grouping with one of these pilot badges in them. I would be very interested to hear some more information about these groupings and see if we can document them any better than just his word of mouth.

I like your analogy about Deutschbein. Another one I could think of is the Round Wreath Pilot badges. These are a big mystery. There are no regulations that support them, they are different than all other typical known wartime pilot badges and there is no direct evidence that these existed (no pics in wear, ground dug, direct from vets hands, etc.). But when you study them, there are lots of physical aspects of them that are positive and "wartime compatible". I don't discount them; for me, the jury is still out.

This is what makes this hobby so fun, still some mysteries left to be solved.

Tom

Tom
Fully agree with your points. The round wreaths are another good analogy....everyone has their doubts but no one quite dismisses them. They remain enigmatic.

Detlev indicated to me that he came upon several S&L types (he did not refer to them as such) from time to time directly from the source -- i.e. from luftwaffe vets who he knew were the real deal, and who did provide him with other original wartime militaria. I can't say for certain whether or not he ever listed these badges in groupings per se, but he did acquire them in groupings he judged to be legitimate. This was why he chose to show the hollowback soldered version in his last Price Guide.

Think about all the junk PBs that float around out there, many of which look infinitely closer to known originals than these intriguing badges. By most standards, and to the casual observer, these S&L badges don't even look close to the short list of known originals. They look really odd. Yet when you hold them in your hands and really scrutininze them......
well, they have a certain mystique that is undeniable.

Best,
JJS

[Nordmark]

Hi Daniel,

This theory may be exactly right. But what evidence is there that pushes you to the conclusion that these are wartime rather than postwar? When I look at the evidence, I come down on the opposite side of you, I land on postwar. The evidence I look at is:

1. Badge found in vet groupings (verifiable).
2. Pics of badge in wear
3. Ground dug on the battlefield
4. Reverse hardware compatible with known wartime production
5. Found on postwar "Barter boards" for souvenier trade.

I am not a 100% believer in the barter boards being a 100% sure sign of wartime production because we don't know when S&L and others started new production. However, I will admit that they are likely legitimate and a good snapshot of what was leftover and produced during the war. So even if we don't have items 1 through 4 in the list above, if some of these pilot badges were found on a barter board (#5), then I think that would be decent evidence to at least consider these possibly wartime production. But to my knowledge, we don't even have that. All the barter boards I have seen had other-maker Pilot badges (FLL or Meybauers). No board have ever been found with one of these S&L PBs on them. That is a huge negative for the theory that these were latewar production to me.




I agree with this, they are uncommon to find. But this arguement cuts both ways, it could easily be a sign of limited production run in the 1960s with S&L trying out a a new die, who knows. Doesn't the fact that these hollow badges are found with spurious maker marks on them (L12, L56, B&NL, etc.) support the claim that they likely date to the 1970s when this practice was common? Is it reasonable to think that these hollow badges sat in the S&L warehouse for 30 years, and then finally sold to a dealer in the 1970s to be stamped?

When S&L started 1957 production, they used the wartime Paratrooper badge die, which was solid-backed. They cut the swastika off by hand on each 1957 eagle. If these semi-hollow eagles dies were around at the end of the war, why don't we find any 1957er badges with these hollow eagles? My "theory" is because the semi-hollow dies didn't exist at the time, but that is just my own thoughts.



Is this true? How can you or I know where each of these badges popped up? I personally have seen several at the US shows, but admittedly I have no idea if the dealer was from Germany or if the badges were acquired there. However, I am certain they ALL originated from Germany But regardless, I think these badges were made for both Americans and Germans alike. At first they were made for the allies, but within a few years you could also find German's wanting these. Whether their original badges were confiscated, hidden, thrown away, etc., it didn't take very long for them to want to replace them. As long as the badges looked the same (i.e., with swastika), German vets were willing to buy them according to what I've read in Dietrich's RK book.

A final thought on the "late wartime production" theory is that there seems to be quite a bit of variation in them which seems odd for a limited run very late in the war. You can find these with both semi-hollow eagles and solid eagles. You can find the semi-hollow eagles soldered directly to the wreath or rivetted to the wreath. You can find them with solid rivets or hollow rivets. You can find them with "wartime compatible" hardware and also 1957er-compatible hardware. You can find them with different wreath cutouts (i.e., JJS' badge). And each semi-hollow eagle has slightly different die characteristics, suggesting several different dies were in use. This is alot of variation for being such a limited run late in the. Also, was there really a demand for LW pilot badges in 1945, when most LW units were fighting on the ground? I am certain there was some demand when LW badges opened up to the retail trade in late 1944, but I doubt there was enough for a maker to need all these dies and variations.

Tom

Hello Tom,


I fully agree with you, and as stated above, I am not trying to make these wartime originals. You provide some very valid points, that show a strong tendency towards postwar production. I fully agree. These are just my thoughts when it comes to those pieces, and these are based on my experiences and finds regarding those. When I hold a piece like these in my hands, I have the same feeling as JJS, Leroy and Bob. Plus I am a little uncomfortable throwing all of these pieces in the postwar bin, when there are so many variations around. I saw the following pieces by now

-zinc badges that are in all components wartime compatible

-zinc badges with components that are completely wartime compatible except a hardware that is found on 57er pieces

-zinc wreaths with solid CupAl eagle with wartime compatible hardware

-zinc wreaths with solid CupAl eagle with hardware that is found on 57er pieces

-CupAl wreaths with solid CupAl eagles with hardware that is found on 57er pieces

-CupAl wreaths that have a hollow CupAl eagle with 1957er hardware

-zinc wreaths with solid CupAl eagles with Souval Claw

-CupAl badges with Souval Claw

-zinc badges with directly soldered on eagle with hardware that is found on 57er pieces

-zinc badges with directly soldered on eagle with Souval Claw

I´m am pretty sure I missed at least two more pieces/variants.


So except for the pieces with Souval claw, I am the opinion that at least one model, that is still deemed postwar today is a wartime original. But again, this is my opinion based on pieces I have seen over the years and that I was able to see on dealers tables, flea markets etc..


Regards,


Daniel

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Interesting discussion in the Crosses forum that seem very similar to our discussion here regarding Detlev and his catalog:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=1#post6200476

Tom

[Nordmark]

Hello Tom,


well it isn´t new that for a dealer the area of orignal militaria is a little wider, than for the average collector. Bacqueville, Rounder, S&L... you name it.


Regards,


Daniel