Spanish Cross for review

[lakesidetrader]

Checked this against Previtera's example in his Luft reference pg 482, but would appreciate another opinion.
As always your comments are valued.
Paul

[jacques]

Hi ,
Original bronze class cross. I tend to think that these variant could have been manufactured by Godet (not proven) and that they have been awarded in June 1939 to the members of the LC in Döberitz

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Paul,

Very nice original, no problems that I can see. Nicely worn with some great character.

I think Godet is a good lead for the maker of these as well.

Tom

[4xL]

Can someone tell me how to associate with maker Godet?
Does references exist?

regards 4xL

[Sebastien T]

Nice one Paul

Seb

[George L]

Looks like an original but with heavy wear to the eagles, pebbling, and the swords bent on the blades, and one hilt.

[lakesidetrader]

Thanks guys appreciate your assistance.
Enjoy that thanksgiving turkey!

[liquide]

Can someone tell me how to associate with maker Godet?
Does references exist?

No - that´s only guesswork..

But nice worn cross


best, Martin


...

[Brian S]

No reference to Godet that I know of???

[jacques]

in an old IMM magazine, there was a reference to Godet. the picture was blury but the description was closed to these variant shown previously. As I said, no proof, just my own opinion and intuition.

[Brian S]

Jacques, your instincts are great and I'm almost always completely 100% with you. The only thing that cautions me from Godet is the difference in the Diamonds eagles versus this one. Yes the Diamonds version is larger but I would think the eagles would be the same or at least in the same type. The diamonds version eagle more of an elongated tail and this one tucked in a bit. Just my two cents.

[Brian S]

This one in a thread who knows how long ago was "described" as a Godet and is I believe exactly as this one in Bronze above from LST. But again, no MM.

[jacques]

Hi Brian,
I understand your mean, but Diamonds cross is very different and IMO can't be taken as comparison. There are more jeweler work than the mass production others. Eagles are different, pebbling is totally different.
If I remember the article I was refering to was from H.Geissler.
Godet made early cross (i.e. diamonds ones) and I guess they made crosses which were awarded in June 39, as Meybauer, Juncker and Deumer.
But once again, it is my point of view, I'm still open to other opinions and deductions.

[Brian S]

Spain Cross

The Spain Cross w Diamonds was unique. Larger than the standard Gold/Silver/Bronze. This can be visually seen on the Godet Diamonds cross just by looking at the placement of the eagles between the arms. What is interesting is that the eagles don't attach higher because they are larger eagles like the Diamonds Cross itself, but appear "lower" between the arms. This can only be because the eagles are the "standard" size.

Given that, it follows, for me, that Godet had a special die for the Diamonds Spain Cross but used "standard" eagles. Those eagles I would then believe would be the same eagles on their standard cross, IF they had one.

Just a theory. No Godet MAKER MARKED standard crosses have surfaced. And then there's the whole issue behind the fact that in 1964 the company "Die Ordenssammlung" took over (Owner Anneliese Klietmann) Godet. Godet items in my opinion have to be scrutinized no less so than S&L items.

Here's a photo comparison showing the "standard" eagle on the Diamonds Spain Cross and another Spain Cross in Gold that has been attributed in my opinion unjustly to Godet.

The eagles are the same size but not the same eagles.

[Brian S]

From this thead;
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...05#post6172105

Notice there is a Spain Cross here.

Now I see were this story is coming from! It has been repeated numerous times in forums and in some books. The old "there is no way to determine if war time or post war produced". Well, if nobody can see a difference to the real deal than it is the real deal by definition (but that is a different issue).

Klietmann has been accused for many things, amongst them also some involvement in introducing the Ballon Observer Badge into the market. Strong indications are pointing towards him and Mrs. Paetzold being behind the original Rounder when it appeared in the early 80s. But that might just be another stupid rumor.

Fact is this: Kurt-Gerhard Klietmann was born 1910 and he died 1990. He studied archeology and history at the university in Berlin and made his Dr. phil with a dissertation about the Roman pilum. He worked at the Berlin Pergamon Museum. During the war he was serving at the Eastern Front and was wounded twice. After the war he married Anneliese Paetzold and founded his orders and medal institute in 1951. He never had anything to do with the PKZ nor did he ever work there.

The retail shop "The Ordens Sammlung" run by Mrs. was very active in the 60 and 70 and numerous flyers do exist. Attached is one. It is interesting to note that she offered the oaks and swords in silver and also in silvered. This would make any post-war identification of her use of the original dies fairly easy since one would find "original" Godet "21 - 900" made of let's say Tombak and just silvered with no marks. But there are none .... and some people who are talking about this would not know how to identify a genuine set - "they all look the same to me".

Based on the statement in Willimson's book on page 473 "More recently, copies have been noted which give the impression of having been struck from the original dies. As it is known that the Godet tooling for the Knight's Cross, Oakleaves and Oakleaves with Swords survided the war, and were used for making restrikes in the late 1960s and 1970s, it is well within the bounds of possibility that they still exist today and are being used."

He gives no source for this postulation and it is well within the bounds of possibility that he just read it here at WAF and repeated it in his book without checking the validity or truth content. Investigations from my side and collector friends of mine did not turn up anything. Where are the masses of Godets?

The S&L dies in the very bad conditions have been reported to end up in England. The Knights Crosses stamped from that die are full of beading flaws and can't fool anybody - they are far from undistinguishable from the real deal.

Regarding a restrike of the Godet RK another question pops up. How would one know that it is not a reastike from Zimmermann? And that question alone tells the whole story about such rumors!

Dietrich