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**Dave Irving** · 10-15-2004, 05:26 AM

If somebody wants to spend some bucks and get one of these radio carbon dated, I'll listen to the results.

I'm bowing back in. I am not sure that radio carbon dating can produce coherent results involving a time span of sixty years. It can give you a result to the nearest century over millennia. The naysayers cannot prove beyond all doubt that the LWTB was not made before May 9th 1945 and the other side cannot prove that it was.

Some of us prefer to take the word of veterans who were there and who would have earned it over that of people trying to sell us the badge today. It has been suggested that veterans are forgetful. Sure, they are. But not when it comes to combat awards. If anything, some veterans are more likely to award themselves more medals and badges than they had when they are telling war stories! I do not think that a lucid veteran of a Luftwaffe armored unit who was handed one of these badges would forget it! Some of the veterans I have spoken and corresponded with said that they wished they had their own panzer badge. They recalled being very pleased with the LW Ground Assault Badge when it came along in 1942. They eagerly swapped their IABs for it. The motorized and armored guys who got the GAB would have loved their own version of the Heer's PAB in Silver and Bronze.

For me, the scales tip towards the badge being a postwar fabrication based on the order of October 1944 instituting several new combat awards for the Luftwaffe, none of which were produced. If we accept the Luftwaffe Tank Badge as real, do we then accept the Luftwaffe Close Combat Clasp, the Sea Battle Badge and the numbered Ground Assault Badge? It's an argument that has been around since I can remember. There are some very intelligent people here, like Stogieman and Brian S, who argue their points well and I respect them. But for me, the badge is not one I would have in my collection.

Dave Irving

**Don D.** · 10-15-2004, 05:39 AM

There is a difference between produced and issued. The vets can testify that they were never issued this badge but they cannot speak to the production of this badge. And therein lies the rub.
Much like the mal-aligned Balloon Badge which we have some evidence that suggests samples were produced, you really just can't be sure either way if the one you are looking at is real. If we knew what companies were contracted to produce this badge we would have a good lead to follow, but we don't.
Barring evidence like this few people will be willing to shell out the kind of bucks this thing went for. Of course if the buyer ever loses faith in it I'm sure he will use the COA to get his money back.
Perhaps Detlev could tell us where he acquired this badge and how he determined originality.
Don

**stogieman** · 10-15-2004, 08:28 AM

For me.....

...... this is an open book. I feel that the piece sold by Detlev is consistent with period examples of other badges. We know (as a minimum) the badge was awarded on paper. IMO, it was probably produced (minimal run) in the basic format of black.
Chris, I understand completely what you are saying with respects to reproductions, but what cannot be duplicated today is the materials used then. It is inevitable that something always gives the repro away. Be it material, construction, components, etc. While I would agree that your arguments and presentation of your facts is correct, I would also agree that there is enough of a gap here to contend that the badge was produced.
I've shown examples of a Luft GAB that is almost identical to the Luft PAB. Material, style, catch, pin, etc. are almost a perfect match. I have contacted the current owner of the badge to ask for HD scans and upon receipt I will present the pix merged for further review.
I would agree with Robin here, that until further information comes to light, this will come down to a personal decision each collector needs to make for themselves. For me, I would have snapped up that badge in a heartbeat, if I'd had the resources available.
We have 2 instances of this badge, in the same lousy little box now. The one sold by Detlev and the one found by Bill Dienna. Bill's perspective is unimpeachable for me. The C-R badge is pretty darn close. I wish we would have the opportunity to place those physically side by side for comparison.
Is it an item for every collector, no, but neither is an RK, now is it? (speaking strictly with respects to cost).
Until there's definitive proof either way, I will keep an open mind on this badge. I feel strongly that there's enough evidence to suggest they are authentic.

**Chris** · 10-15-2004, 09:35 AM

Just a note of clarification on C-14 (Radio Carbon) dating. Advancements in the technology have made much greater precision in dating available than was previously possible. While precise C-14 dating is difficult for objects made between about 1700 and 1900 CE, because of natural changes in radio carbon, dating objects made after 1950 CE is particularly easy because of the greatly increased levels of C-14 in the atmosphere resulting from nuclear testing. Compared to an object made before 1950, the object made after 1950 will be practically off the meter in C-14. (See, there's a silver lining in every cloud, as my Mom used to say: Nuclear proliferation is good, because it allows us to date Nazi relics. Who knew?)

The cost is around $250 per test, and it involves removing a tiny piece of material about the size of the head of a pin for processing. There are about 110 laboratories in the United States which do this work. If somebody really wants to settle the LWTB debate scientifically once and for all, I suggest somebody in the believer group take the best sample you've got and have it tested. If the answer comes back, "made before 1950," then OK, I'm wrong, and I'll eat these electrons. But I don't think so. In the meantime, putting pictures of dubious badges side-by-side and talking about authenticity is like putting plaster casts of Bigfoot footprints side-by-side and talking about the nature of Bigfoot.

On a broader note, it may be that radio-carbon dating could in the near future be the perfect silver bullet we've all been praying for decades now to determine authenticity, especially for high-end artifacts like SS panzer wrappers, Knight's Crosses and so on. Imagine, irrefutable objective analysis based on hard science for your collection, rather than "the boys all like it" and authentication by concensus!

**stogieman** · 10-15-2004, 09:43 AM

So then Chris ....

.... you're just not capable of carrying on a conversation with posting inflamatory, useless remarks, are you?
"In the meantime, putting pictures of dubious badges side-by-side and talking about authenticity is like putting plaster casts of Bigfoot footprints side-by-side and talking about the nature of Bigfoot."

So what exactly is it you're saying here Chris? You believe that the Luftwaffe GAB I posted that resembles the Luftwaffe Tank badge to be one of your "post 1950 reproductions" as well?

Please, by all means, enlighten us further......

**George Stimson** · 10-15-2004, 10:08 AM

"On a broader note, it may be that radio-carbon dating could in the near future be the perfect silver bullet we've all been praying for decades now to determine authenticity, especially for high-end artifacts like SS panzer wrappers, Knight's Crosses and so on. Imagine, irrefutable objective analysis based on hard science for your collection, rather than "the boys all like it" and authentication by concensus!"

I am certain that this will happen, and that it will save our hobby!

**Luft62** · 10-15-2004, 10:14 AM

My 2 cents worth... (sorry if I'm repeating anything previously written)

I just wonder how big this pool of vets is that have been asked which version of the PAB they were awarded? 10, 20, 50, 100, 500???
Just as important question might be "What was the date of their award?"

Personally I think these were definately produced prior to May '45 and for a combination of reasons very few reached the recipients.

I knew of one FJ vet who swore that he was awarded the LW PAB in late April '45 - my dad and him argued for a while with my dad's reasoning was that because he saw neither the LW CCC or LW PAB being worn that they didn't exist (sound familiar?). And then out came the soldbuch with the entry and out came the surviving awards including the LW PAB!
My dad's response was something like "well I'll be f**ked!".

Pity these events were over 25 years ago, but I can remember being surprised at how crude the couple of LW badges I saw that day were - zinc with cast in catches etc
I just know a common response to this is going to be "the guy probably bought it post-war to complete his set of awards".
It didn't take long to realise that the repros of the time (late 70's) really were very easy to spot even when compared to the relative roughness of these late awarded genuine items.

A year or two ago I found a pic on the net of a FJ HG vets collection of his awards along with his soldbuch entries for these awards. These were a mix of WW2 and '57 of his awards (he had a '57 LW CCC and EK1) but the LW PAB was a WW2 type. The award date for his LW PAB was early May '45 from memory. I'd love to be able check out this particular LW PAB.

As for the "lack of photographic evidence" argument which would seem to be up there with "but the vets say..." as the prime reasons why so many people think these are not pre-May '45 pieces:-
What if these didn't reach units for award/issue until the last few weeks or even days of the war and then to only to a single point of distribution?
Think about the rarity of photos from this period - even if the pic was taken, getting it developed prior to surrender was probably a bit of a problem - and as for hanging onto the photos themselves, let alone the camera and/or film after surrender?
Considering the time frame and the number of possible recipients during this period, finding photographic evidence of the award being worn is probably much harder than finding the proverbial needle in a (very big) haystack.

These badges do pop up from time to time and have done so since at least the early 80's when I started collecting.
The general opinion of those that inhabit these forums would appear to be that they are very doubtful and as such "not for my collection".
With any luck, this will continue and I'll still have a chance of being able to pick up one at a reasonable price!

**Chris** · 10-15-2004, 10:17 AM

Stogieman, somebody talks about a miraculous, incredible, "silver bullet" scientific technology available today that could be the perfect and permanent salvation of our entire hobby, delivering us forever from fakery, fraud and chicanery, and the limit of your vision is to go on about a LW ground combat badge. Nope, I think I'm pretty much done with this thread.

**Robin Lumsden** · 10-15-2004, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by George Stimson

"On a broader note, it may be that radio-carbon dating could in the near future be the perfect silver bullet we've all been praying for decades now to determine authenticity, especially for high-end artifacts like SS panzer wrappers, Knight's Crosses and so on. Imagine, irrefutable objective analysis based on hard science for your collection, rather than "the boys all like it" and authentication by concensus!"

I am certain that this will happen, and that it will save our hobby!

George.
It might also kill the hobby.

Imagine all the wails when the carbon dater comes out its box and proves that the whole collection is fake!

**George Stimson** · 10-15-2004, 10:25 AM

Robin

Que sera, sera.

**stogieman** · 10-15-2004, 10:40 AM

Chris....

... you made a statement concerning dubious badges. I ask again, are you stating that the Luft GAB I showed is in your opinion, also one of your fakes? Don't go tossing your words around and then act surprised when someone calls you on your own statements.

And a PS: It's a shame that it would seem based upon your attitude and demeanor that the majority of the people you respond to on these forums also seem to lack the same "limit of vision" as you Chris. However, I am hoping that someday, somehow, I might become as inciteful and competant as you. I tend to doubt this will ever happen to the majority of the collecting community in your eyes, but there's always hope that the rest of us might someday attain the same level of experience and expertise as you obviously have.

Originally posted by Chris

Stogieman, somebody talks about a miraculous, incredible, "silver bullet" scientific technology available today that could be the perfect and permanent salvation of our entire hobby, delivering us forever from fakery, fraud and chicanery, and the limit of your vision is to go on about a LW ground combat badge. Nope, I think I'm pretty much done with this thread.

**Joseph D'Errico** · 10-15-2004, 11:07 AM

Greetings,

Just a thought here, before anyone starts to remove anything from an award that they want to have carbon dated . Check with the seller that this will not void the guarantee of authenticity . Most dealer will void the agreement if the piece has been tampered with. Typically this is clearly stated in the terms. Just a word of caution.

Cheers,
Joe

**Luft62** · 10-15-2004, 11:58 AM

Let's just clarify something...

You can't carbon date metal using the C-14 method!

Doesn't matter if it is made in 1955BC or AD1955!

C-14 Carbon Dating can only be used on something that was originally living and breathing. i.e. plants and animals.

**MH184** · 10-15-2004, 12:16 PM

Correct

**Chris** · 10-15-2004, 12:24 PM

Completely false. Here is a list of what can be dated using the C-14 method. This information and much more is available on the Radiocarbon Webinfo website

http://www.c14dating.com/k12.html

for anyone interested in scientific facts about C-14, rather than uninformed conjecture. Note that specifically included on this list are textiles and fabrics, leather, paper items, and metal ores. These categories encompass just about everything collectible I can think of from the Third Reich era.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(begin verbatim cut and paste from Radiocarbon Webinfo website)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What kind of things can you date using radiocarbon?

Because carbon is very common on Earth, there are alot of different types of material which can be dated by scientists. Below is a list of the different kinds of materials which can be dated:

Charcoal, wood, twigs and seeds.
Bone.
Marine, estuarine and riverine shell.
Leather.
Peat
Coprolites (samples of preserved faeces).
Lake muds (gyttja) and sediments.
Soil.
Ice cores.
Pollen.
Hair.
Pottery.
Metal casting ores.
Wall paintings and rock art works.
Iron and meteorites.
Bird eggshell.
Corals and foraminifera.
Blood residues.
Textiles and fabrics.
Paper and parchment.
Fish remains.
Insect remains.
Resins and glues.
Antler and horn.
Water.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(end verbatim cut and paste from Radiocarbon Webinfo website)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The last two posts belong in the coprolites category.

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