Glider Pilot Badge from Crete

[Mike39]

Mike,
Take a look at the threads below. I believe yours is zinc, including the wreath, which has held the finish very well. If you read through the threads, quite a few of these were brought back by NZ vets/former POWs who probably looted a warehouse with these and other Gablonz LW badges (RK nightfighters). Yours probably came from the same source, as opposed to being an early one from the Crete campaign. I am a firm believer that these are not postwar, but rather produced in Gablonz very late in the war when many of the factories in Germany proper had been bombed out or overrun.
Dale

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...L+HINGE+GLIDER

Here's the one I bought.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...gablonz+glider

Hi Dale
Thanks for your comments and the link to previous discussions on this type of badge.
I'm applying for the vets war service records ( on behaif of his family ) which will help shed a little bit more light on his movements up to when he was liberated at the end of the war. This will also tell me which Stalag he was in which may support the theory of the badges being picked up at the end of hostilities. One point to note though, based on that theory, these badges were picked up in May 45. According to official records, he must have been liberated from his Stalag before the end of the war as he was repatriated back to NZ in April 45, most likely in very poor health as many long term POWs were.
I'm sure when I get his file I'll be able to establish a more accurate time line of events.

Cheers
Mike

[Mike39]

Hi

what would the chances be of an allied solider holding onto a German badge while in captivity?

slim verging on impossible I would have thought? werent their possessions closey vetted?

cheers

dave

I had considered that as well. There is a possibility that because he was an Officer and a Doctor that was also treating & saving the life of German wounded, this may have been over looked by the German's. Ofcoarse, he may have just been a clever bugger as well and managed to keep it well concelled along with other contraban ( as a good POW would do ! ).
All of what I know so far, apart from what I've managed to find in official history references in the past 24hrs, has come dirrectly from his daughter inlaw. He ( the vet ) past away about 30 years ago & I'm sure some of the information past on will have a few anomollies which are yet to be clarified.
I think in part, a lot my depend on which Stalag he was in.

Mike

Mike

[Tim O.]

Absolutely fascinating thread. It is great when something comes along to test the theories. It will be interesting to see what more you can establish Mike.

I do not have a glider badge in my collection but would of course love to have one. I do question the certainty with which some authors suggest various metals were used at certain times. We know early badges were still being presented as late as 1944 but what is harder to prove in when zinc badges started (as oppose to becoming main stream). For example, could they have been offered as a cheap private purchase alternative to wear in combat while the 'nicer' award piece was kept at home, or as a cheaper private purchase option for other ranks who might not afford expensive metals. Total speculation, no evidence, but potentially credible options - maybe!

[Ludwig]

I would gladly buy the badge!...but not the story. With all the respect!

[nzef1940]

Thanks for posting Mike. Great badge and very interesting historic background of the Kiwi vet.

[Mike39]

I would gladly buy the badge!...but not the story. With all the respect!

With all due respect, this is no story. Regardless of whether picked up in Crete or after he was liberated from the stalag, this badge came back with this Kiwi Medical Officer & has been with his family ever since. This badge means absolutly nothing to this mans family apart from it was something grandad bought back from the war. They're not as aware of the historical relavence as we are on the forum and therefore have nothing to gain apart from knowing a little bit more about what their grandfather did during his service.
I posted this badge more because it was an oppurtunity to share with those who appreciate the relavence of finding a rare badge with credible provenance.
To me, a badge is a badge, but a badge or any item with provenance means everything.

Mike

[Tim O.]

I can't believe the Germans would allow a POW to possess one of their own badges. Not to mention the pin on the badge could be used as a weapon or for picking a lock.

There are several documented incidences of the British allowing awards such as the Iron Cross 1st Class to be made to POWs through the Red Cross. Pictures of German POWs in British or Canadian camps show prisoners wearing their awards. The Americans more often took the awards from German prisonesr but the British and Commonwealth troops rarely did - incidentally, I believe that is one reason why US veteran's families provide a huge pool of German awards and British and other Allied veteran's families do not on anything like the same scale.

If a doctor who had helped wounded Germans was in a POW camp run by ex-front line German soldiers (and several were run by those no longer fit for front line service due to wounds) then I think it is certainly possible the doctor would be allowed to keep an award given to him as a 'thank you' ( simply as a mark of respect for his deeds).

This doesn't mean the details of the story are correct but I think it is entirely possible an award could stay with the doctor while in POW camp.

[90th Light]

For what it is worth and for those who can not be bothered reading the links, here is the history of where my ball hinge glider badge came from;

The LW base was at "Luckenwalde" which I am told is between Leipzig and Dresden. I can not find the Stalag number but it was very close to Luckenwalde. I have not had the time yet to do the research and find the number. Other members of the forum may recognise this base and know ? If anyone does then if they could please post it here, it would be appreciated.

There was an article published in the magazine called "POW-WOW" for members of the New Zealand former prisoner of war association in 1980. I do now have a copy of this article but it is a "PDF" and I am trying to work out how to post that format on this forum.

These badges which I have, were obtained in May 1945 by a New Zealand soldier who was in a German prisoner of war camp. The Germans up and went. The prisoners were left to their own devices to look after them-selves until the Allies arrived. The first allies to get there were the Russians but they had no spare food or clothing. The Russians organised passes (in Russian saying that they were comrades in the struggle) for the various POW's to go searching and look after themselves without risk of being shot by their allies from the east.

The POW's organised some groups to go and find food. In the course of this search they checked out a LW base close by and raided the stores. A blanket was filled with LW flight-clasps and qualification badges. This was carried back to the POW camp with other items and dumped down on the ground. Any-one who wanted some could help themselves.

The NZ veteran I got mine from had 20 different types of badges. In this hoard, two of the types brought back were the "RK" flight clasps and the ball-hinge gliders. It makes one wonder if "RK" are the makers of the "ball hinge glider" esp. when you look at the pin and hinge on their panzer badges.

I spoke to one of the other collectors who also got many of these and he told me he could remember a lot of flight clasps, qualification badges and cuff titles including an Afrika one on tightly woven cotten and early FJR1 titles. He also said, many of the badges he handled from these POW hoards had been made by Osang. The makers among my badges are Osang, RK, BSW, RSS, B&NL and Assmann plus several with no makers mark.

Hope this is of some interest,

Chris

p.s. The wreath on my glider badge has a very heavy nickel plating, just like the "RK" panzer badges. This has been white frosted using acid like the beading on a KC. After frosting, the high points on the oak leaves have been burnished & factory polished bright. If "RK" panzer badges of this high quality finish were being issued in 1940, then we have to consider the possibility that these "RK" type ball hinge glider badges might be a lot earlier than has previously been suggested. Does anyone know when the "RK" panzer badges were first issued ?

[AFF96]

Well as one of my strange lusts is for GP badges, thought I'd put in my 2 cents.
I love the discussions on the ball hinge "Gablonz" GP badges. They are somewhat controversial, but I'm one of the believers (even before owning a couple). I think Stijn isn't a fan (don't want to speak for him) as I again believe, he never received one directly from a FJ Vet? But again apologize if wrong.

Awhile ago Hugh Broch wrote a pretty good article in IMC that Nick alerted us to:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&highlight=imc

And I was fortunate to pick the badge up from Hugh:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=578455&page=2

The other I picked up from one of our fav dealers which I'm now trying to sell, who received it directly from a US Army nurse (provenance???), who said she received it in WW II:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=575751

I don't think there's any doubt with all of Tom's studies of badges that the zincers are later, period.
As far as the stories we sometimes hear/receive IMO it's up to the owner of the badge & anyone who may end up buying it whether it's accurate or now, but that's part of the fun in our hobby.
Opinions are like noses, everyone has them & Mike I really love you beautiful & hard to find GP Badge!!

[Nick Carraway]

I would second that Tom has done exhaustive analysis that clearly and empiracly shows the material progression. There are documents from the requisite authorities clearly noting when high quality metals were to be phased out for zinc.

And as much as I appreciate the provenance of any badge we must look at it dispassionately. Everyone here is saying it is 100% authentic. Period. But it does not fit the historical timeline for a Kreta badge. Period. Not trying to hurt feelings, just looking at the evidence. Scientists look at fossils and place them in the appropriate timeline. Just as one would not place a Brontosaurus in an earlier period we should be consistent with this badge.

[Tim O.]

Even trying to keep my mind as open as possible, it does seem Chris's explanation is the most likely. It is still a great badge, it still has provenance; only how it came into the hands of the good doctor is perhaps in doubt.

[Dietrich Maerz]

... I do question the certainty with which some authors suggest various metals were used at certain times. ....

While I agree that there are "certain" authors that suggest certain metals, (and numbers and models and ....) without any proof, I also think that other "certain" authors go to a great deal of paperwork and statistical data to proof their "theories" in a way which allows the reader to come to the same conclusion.

I cannot comment on this particular case, but I can say this much: if we as a community would not question every "story" against the other available data and documents, there would be no fakes at all! I know that this one is not a fake and I am not saying so. All I am saying is that the story which comes with it goes against all the other data available as of today. And it is not common practice in any field of research to throw out hundreds of verifiable data because of one occurance which doesn't agree. The normal procedure is to search for another explanation and if one searches long enough one normally can find one.

Dietrich

[Tim O.]

While I agree that there are "certain" authors that suggest certain metals, (and numbers and models and ....) without any proof, I also think that other "certain" authors go to a great deal of paperwork and statistical data to proof their "theories" in a way which allows the reader to come to the same conclusion.

I cannot comment on this particular case, but I can say this much: if we as a community would not question every "story" against the other available data and documents, there would be no fakes at all! I know that this one is not a fake and I am not saying so. All I am saying is that the story which comes with it goes against all the other data available as of today. And it is not common practice in any field of research to throw out hundreds of verifiable data because of one occurance which doesn't agree. The normal procedure is to search for another explanation and if one searches long enough one normally can find one.

Dietrich

Hi Dietrich, I have a number of your books and do not question the comprehensive research that went into them or all the detective work done by Tom Durante and many others on this forum. I am actually agreeing with your position: a badge that appears not to fit the current thinking tests the theories. As I mentioned above, the explanation from Chris regarding POWs from NZ picking up awards after their release looks like the answer and makes this badge align with current thinking if the story it came with is only slightly adjusted (i.e. the doctor picked it up in mainland Europe in 1945 and not in Crete in 1941).

Apologies if I caused offence. Certainly not intended.

[Dietrich Maerz]

No offense at all!

I was actually more thinking about the earlier authors when you made your remark. I am still searching for the Godet dies for the Oakleaves, the dies for the Juncker Grand Cross and the genuine L/12 Knights Cross with separate soldered on ring which were postulated by "certain" authors as facts w/o even one shred of evidence. That and other statements (such as the PKZ numbers lwere introduced in 1944) has led to a lot of collector myths and wrongly drawn conclusions which are very hard to get rid off. If one says one knows then show where you got the "know" from. If one doesn't know, then say it is a theory. Nothing wrong with that. But even a theory should be backed up by some solid evidence.

I think the theory of the POWs is very likely!

Dietrich

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Great discussion so far!

I also like Chris' story about the vets acquiring these type of ball hinge badges at the end of the war, which fits perfectly with what we see on the badge itself (made from zinc with crimped in hardware). Its not only the zinc base metal that suggest this type of badge is later-war rather than early war, but it is also the fact that that hardware is crimped in rather than soldered on. Crimping in the reverse hardware is not an early wartime technique usually, since we never find it on nickel-silver or tombak badges. Even when makers started to transition to using zinc, we still don't find crimping to be the method of choice. Rather it seems that crimping in the hardware came about much later on, as a way to try simplify and speed up the production process.....and predominantly with Gablonz-based makers. This is based on the study of many types of badges from the Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine...not just one single badge. So the combination of zinc base metal AND crimping in the hardware is good evidence pointing to a later-war badge IMO.

While RK is a possible maker for these, I would say that any Gablonz-based maker could really be a candidate at this point. Actually, I think the evidence points away from RK on the basis that RK didn't have a problem marking their badges. We know of many RK-made and marked pieces that were made in the same timeframe as these ball-hinge gliders....and all are marked with "RK" (LW Airgunner, LW Ground Assault Badge, Numbered GABs, regular PABs, LW flight clasps, etc.). So the questions immediately comes to mind...why would RK mark all these other badges, but not their gliders?

There are many other Gablonz-based makers to choose from that are just as likely candidates IMO (RSS, JFS, AGMuK makers 1 through 7, Adolf Scholze, "AS in Triangle", MK, etc.).

Tom

p.s., Chris, I think if you ask any PAB collector when they think the RK-marked PABs were produced, I think they would say later in the war (i.e. 1942 and later).

Tom