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**Peter B** · 07-31-2004, 07:48 AM

Frank thanks for enhancing my pic.

I think you are right about this piece (damn!!

).

As part of my "research" before buying this one was to use an archived pic I had from Detlev's site and as you point out it looks like Detlev's one may not have been okay.

I hope the "lifetime guarantee" that came with this one will be honoured.

Thanks again.

**Frank Heukemes** · 07-31-2004, 08:00 AM

Dear Peter,

Please do not be so quick.

1) You got just my opinion on it.
2) Your pics are not good enough (even after enlarging them) to make a final decision if this is indeed a casting.

To be clear: Detlev´s badge is okay, it is just not a Buntmetall para badge as he stated.

**Peter B** · 07-31-2004, 05:38 PM

I think my concern was there were a few comments by yourself & other collectors that there are no know tombak examples of an Osang badge that have been located. I am pretty certain this one is not zinc.

But to get back to my first post - why would a badge maker who had not previously made this type of badge in tombak start producing a version of it in zinc during the mid to late war period.

My thinking behind this is that zinc badges were introduced due to the shortages of "better" metals due to war requirements. Unless Osang managed to obtain a set of dies (at no or little cost) why would they suddenly decide to purchase or make a set of dies to start making these type of badges?

I appreciate that due to a lack first hand accounts and accurate records, many badge production questions are still unresolved, however I'd appreciate the thoughts of others on this question. Thanks.

**Frank Heukemes** · 07-31-2004, 06:03 PM

Dear Peter,

The fact that a company just and only made zinc badges is not unusual at all when looking at Third Reich badges in general. Even when just focusing on para badges, Osang is not alone here:

-GWL made only zink para badges
-B&NL made only zinc para badges (with an occasional eagle in Tombak, wreath always zinc)
-Meybauer made only zinc para badges

More and more companies made this badge, clearly to respond to a higher demand, which corresponds with the importance (and numbers) the Fallschirmjägers gained throughout the first years of the war.

On the other hand, IMME made only Buntmetall para badges. There are some IMME marked zinc paras, but upon closer inspection they do follow the Juncker design and are indeed more Juncker zinc para than they are IMME made paras. The same seems to be true for Deumer paras, only in Buntmetall.

I am speaking in absolutes here which is never wise. But it can be said that no original badges showed up until today that could prove the above statements wrong. Very unlikely that we will find original Buntmetall GWL, Osang, B&NL and Meybauer paras ever. And if we will, it will be just a unique badge we would look at, certainly not a mass produced item. It is always difficult to determine 100% if these badges are right or wrong.
But your badge having a zinc design down to the pin setup, but being made of Buntmetall is more than suspicios to me. This in combination with the weak detail (Osang paras are usually very crisp) leads me to believe it is a modern fake.

I wonder what other people´s thoughts are on this.

**pchwastiak** · 07-31-2004, 07:21 PM

Peter

Can you tell if the eagle is "fire guilded", the back of the eagle is the best place to look as it does not get any wear.

An early original badge should be "fire guilded".

I once had what I thought to be a very nice B&L para badge once that was not fire guilded.I thought that the lack of fire guilding was just a left out manufacturing process, but in the end the badge turned out to be bad.

Regards
Peter C

**Frank Heukemes** · 07-31-2004, 07:24 PM

There are MANY (the majority) B&NL para badges that have eagles which are zinc and NOT firegilded, but gilded with golden Brennlack. Some few have firegilded Tombak eagles. But I repeat myself.

**pchwastiak** · 07-31-2004, 07:33 PM

Peter

I just found this Detlev Picture in my photo files , which unfortunatly look a lot like your badge.

**pchwastiak** · 07-31-2004, 07:34 PM

The front of the badge

**Frank Heukemes** · 07-31-2004, 07:41 PM

That badge has a JUNCKER type eagle design and a JUNCKER design wreath.

Peter´s badge has an OSANG design eagle and and OSANG design wreath.

There are many differences in between those two designs, in fact nothing is the same.

**Joseph D'Errico** · 07-31-2004, 09:08 PM

Hello Frank,

The badge that Peter posted came from someone I sold it to almost two years ago. I have told Peter that a return is not an issue, never is.
I agree with what you have posted about Osang Paras on this thread as well as the other references made to other makers of Para badges.

When I get the piece back from Peter, I will re- shoot the pics and post measurements and weights as well.

That will at least provide the forum members as well as yourself with some crisp pics so that further evaluation can be made.

I have studied the pics posted by Peter and have come to the conclusion that while I share some of your thoughts, I really have to have badge in my hands to share my thoughts.

Best,
JD

**CRAIGGOODWIN** · 08-01-2004, 01:45 AM

Good one Joe !!

The badge that Peter posted came from someone I sold it to almost two years ago. I have told Peter that a return is not an issue, never is.
I agree with what you have posted about Osang Paras on this thread as well as the other references made to other makers of Para badges.

Joe - that is a big statement made by a big man - I wish others were as ethical & honourable as yourself in these matters as I am sure Peter does as well

People can say many things - but it's their actions which truely speak louder than their words - all the best Craig

**Mike Kenny** · 08-01-2004, 04:04 AM

Originally posted by pchwastiak

Peter

Can you tell if the eagle is "fire guilded", the back of the eagle is the best place to look as it does not get any wear.

An early original badge should be "fire guilded".

I once had what I thought to be a very nice B&L para badge once that was not fire guilded.I thought that the lack of fire guilding was just a left out manufacturing process, but in the end the badge turned out to be bad.

Regards
Peter C

Originally posted by Frank H

There are MANY (the majority) B&NL para badges that have eagles which are zinc and NOT firegilded, but gilded with golden Brennlack. Some few have firegilded Tombak eagles. But I repeat myself.

Hi,

I think there was some miscommunication on these points. I think Pete C makes a fair point by coming at the Osang/tombak question from the other side. IF there is a genuine earlier/tombak example, there's a good possibility that the eagle may have been fire-gilded. If Peter B's eagle is fire-gilded, then that may possibly be positive evidence for Osang having produced a tombak LW Para badge.

Pete C should have mentioned that the B&NL marked LW Para badge he mentioned was a dip-wreath repro - a repro made with a tombak eagle but the eagle wasn't fire-gilded. The absence of fire-gilding was only one indicator that the badge was a repro. This happened way back when the dip-wreath repros were first being circulated and weren't well known.

As an aside, there are some excellent genuine Osang-marked tombak LW flight clasps, with fire-gilded gold grades (see Paul W's article - Gold Bomber Clasp). For the sake of the discussion, if Osang were producing other tombak badges in 1941/42, why not an initial run of tombak LW Para badges?

The only way I think a question like this can get resolved is if one or more of these badges are sourced directly from German vets. Weights and measurements in comparison to a genuine zinc badge probably won't help, as the difference between tombak and zinc effects both weight AND measurements from what I've seen of genuine tombak/zinc badges of other types from other makers.

Regards
Mike K

PS: I'm glad there's no Peter A in this discussion - I'd really have to mind my A B C's then, as well as my P(ara)'s and Q(uestionable)'s!!

PPS: Does Peter B's badge actually have a catch plate? I can't make it out in the images.

**Peter B** · 08-01-2004, 06:12 AM

PPS: Does Peter B's badge actually have a catch plate? I can't make it out in the images.[/QUOTE]

Hi Mike

Thanks for joining the discussion - the catch does not appear to have a catch as such - the base of the "C" shaped catch is straightened & looks like it have been soldered or spot welded to the rear of the wreath.

However the hinge does have a catch plate.

**Frank Heukemes** · 08-01-2004, 06:17 AM

Dear Mike,

Measurements and weight WILL help because what we see here under discussion is a ZINC style badge. If it is indeed not zinc and weighs in differently than a zinc badge, it underlines the suspicions. If it meaures smaller it underlines the suspicions that it is a casting from a good ZINC Osang badge. That is why measurements and weight is important here. I see no way that a possible Osang Buntmetall para badge (which could theoretically exist, I agree) should look like their zinc badges as far as the pin setup is concerned. It is a typical zinc badge setup not to be found on any original Tombak badge.

**Frank Heukemes** · 08-01-2004, 06:19 AM

Dear Joe,

I look forward to your crisp pics, measurements and weights to give this badge the discussion it deserves. Thanks.

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