Fire gilding or not?

[jani_tiainen]

Dear Friends,

This topic includes all the German badges manufactured during 1930's - 1940's, but I entered it here because of such method in question was mainly used (or not .).. in the badges under this topic.

Ok - I am making series of articles in to Finnish collectors magazine, and after the first part was published I got very interesting comments from one of the leading heraldics and researchers among this area in Finland. He had been working since 1980's in our famous medal maker "Tillander" and been freelancer last few years. He is professional goldsmith.

He did not believe that fire gilding could have been used in Germany during 1930's or 1940's because it was suppose to be "Verboten" (illegal) because of very dangerous chemicals used and gas coming up in the process.

He asked me wheter there is actual proof for fire guilding really used, because very much likely similar appearance could have been made with other not that hazardous methods?

Can any of you give me proof that fire gilding was really used or is it just thay badges look a like that? I have seen fire gilding mentioned in many references and by by many dealers... but I am seeking truth

Jani

[Gordon Williamson]

Jani,

Some of the original period manufacturers catalogues actually state that badges are "fire gilded" (feuervergoldet) as opposed to simply gold plated or "gilded". Sometimes (I am thinking here of Kriegsmarine tunic buttons I have seen) these can actually have this stamped into the back of the button, so I don't think there is any real doubt that fire gilding was actually used.

[jani_tiainen]

Thanks Gordon!

So the fire gilding was allowed in Germany? That is just quite weird since its hazards and when it was outlawed in many other countries already years earlier...

Jani

Jani,

Some of the original period manufacturers catalogues actually state that badges are "fire gilded" (feuervergoldet) as opposed to simply gold plated or "gilded". Sometimes (I am thinking here of Kriegsmarine tunic buttons I have seen) these can actually have this stamped into the back of the button, so I don't think there is any real doubt that fire gilding was actually used.

[Don D.]

Jani, when was it outlawed?
Don

[Pascal H.]

Dear Jani,

I think laws which forbid fire gilding came much later. Even now under strick rules fire gilding is still allowed.

It is however mainly the antique restoration business which has use for fire gilded objects.

Pascal

[jani_tiainen]

According to my references, the fire gilding was mostly prohibited in early 1900's century - in Finland it was not used anymore at the time we got our independence in 1917. I am sure it was used in small scale as it is still used now - but e.g from the period of WW2 I have read article about german POW's put to do it in Russia because of its extreme dangers.

I have attached picture from another threat were this particular item is said to be firegild and these splashes on reverse occured from fire gilding. According to that goldsmith who is now mixing my mind - that Flottenkiregsabzeichen in the picture is not necessarily firegild, but the splashes were most propably came from regular gild wash.

I am not goldsmith - neither expert on these matters. I just wanted to let you know about the very strong opinions I received and needed to create my own based on proofs.

Jani

Dear Jani,

I think laws which forbid fire gilding came much later. Even now under strick rules fire gilding is still allowed.

It is however mainly the antique restoration business which has use for fire gilded objects.

Pascal