Hi,
In the Flak Badge thread I threw out a tounge in cheek comment re how Pilot/PO Badge eagles may have been produced. I suggested that the eagles were produced with flat reverses (or at least with only subtle vaulting) and the bulk of the curvature/vaulting of the eagle was done post die striking/casting (ie, when the eagles had been removed from the dies). I'll expand on that a bit more seriously in this thread, instead of derailing the other thread. I'll make it text only for now, but I can back some observations up later with images - time permitting.
Firstly, I state up front that I do not know how these eagles were produced and other causes/procedures may also explain some of my observations.
Secondly, this only applies to eagles of SOME LW PILOT/PO badge makers (probably not all) - not Para, Radio Op or Glider Badges. It MAY apply to some Observer badges as well though. I'm not including the obviously hand-bent swastikas on early LW Para or Observer badge eagles (eg Juncker examples, possibly also some Pilot/PO badge eagles as well, even after vaulting) - I think that was a separate process.
For convenience, I'll only refer to Pilot's Badge eagles, knowing full well that anything I say applies equally to PO Badge eagles.
I've made my observations from a very limited data set. Although in my collection I have Pilot's Badges from only 4 makers, 2 of these are first pattern Juncker examples (a boxed CEJ example and one with the full two-line maker mark) and 3 are from the "unknown" maker. It's relatively easy to pick a genuine badge, but the main observation I'll outline can ONLY be made when two badges, of the same type/pattern and from the same maker, are sitting next to each other (actually they need to be one on top of the other!).
I first made the MAIN observation when I compared my two PO badges from the unknown maker. One is an early tombak wreath, nickel-silver eagle example - the other is a later zinc example. The obverse wreath/eagle characteristics match, so I am fairly certain that only one set of dies is involved. The eagles on the two badges have significantly different degrees of vaulting though - the nickel-silver eagle is significantly more vaulted than the zinc eagle. The reverse of the zinc eagle is almost toally flat - the wing tips have some curving to them though. I have recently acquired an early Pilot's Badge by the "unknown" maker. The reverse of the nickel-silver eagle has very similar vaulting to the PO badge eagle, but there appears to be a subtle difference.
I have also compared my two first pattern (J1) Juncker eagles and the vaulting on the reverse of the CEJ (earlier) eagle appears to be slightly more pronounced that on the C.E. Juncker... example (maybe 5 degrees extra at the wingtips).
So - point 1 - eagles from the same dies from at least two manufacturers have different degrees of vaulting. I can only really explain this by concluding that all (or most) of the vaulting was done post-striking/casting. I do concede that the "riveting" process may introduce some stresses which may affect the vaulting of the eagle, but I don't think this could account for all the differences observed.
My second point can be observed on most vaulted eagles. It does not require a side-by-side comparison, just a bit of logic. If a highly vaulted eagle was die-struck, you'd expect all the edges (with or without shear marks) to be aligned purely vertically, as die-striking is a purely up-down / vertical procedure. So on a vaulted eagle, you'd expect the areas with the highest vaulting to have edges that are NOT prependicular to the top/bottom surfaces of the eagle - they would appear to be on a diagonal/angle to the top/bottom surfaces. This is not what I see on my Pilot's Badge eagles though - all the edges are prependicular to the surfaces of the eagle, so that on vaulted eagles the edges form a sort of radial pattern. That's point 2 - it's hard to describe in text but it's important and I hope you get the gist.
Also, with some thick and highly vaulted eagles, like OMs and B&NLs, it would be almost physically impossible to extract one of those eagles from a die (whether cast or struck) - look at one and think about it!!
Die-casting may explain why some maker's vaulted eagles go against this observation (eg possibly BSW eagles) but most eagles (early Juncker, OM, B&NL, "unknown" maker) look like they are die struck to me as the fine details appear to good for a die-casting.
My theory on how the eagles were vaulted post striking involves a jig or press of some sort with curved upper and lower halves (with or without recessing/alignment markings) and probably leather or hard rubber lined (to avoid marking the eagles but strong enough to handle moderate to hard pressures). I'm sure someone could come up with another theory.
I can't take these observations any further at present - it costs Aus$1000 plus to add a Pilot's Badge these days!! So I'd ask that those members (we know who you are!) who have more than one Pilot/PO Badge of the same pattern by the same maker to get them out and CAREFULLY compare the vaulting on the eagles (no 2 second comparisons!). With J2/J3 Juncker eagles, it doesn't matter what pattern wreaths they are on, we're only talking about the eagles. Any comparisons of vaulting between ZINC and tombak or nickel-silver eagles will be very interesting imo. I'd also be careful with aluminium eagles as they are just too soft and any decent bump/ding while in wear is likely to have pushed them out of shape.
OK, over to you guys (and gals?).
Regards
Mike K
In the Flak Badge thread I threw out a tounge in cheek comment re how Pilot/PO Badge eagles may have been produced. I suggested that the eagles were produced with flat reverses (or at least with only subtle vaulting) and the bulk of the curvature/vaulting of the eagle was done post die striking/casting (ie, when the eagles had been removed from the dies). I'll expand on that a bit more seriously in this thread, instead of derailing the other thread. I'll make it text only for now, but I can back some observations up later with images - time permitting.
Firstly, I state up front that I do not know how these eagles were produced and other causes/procedures may also explain some of my observations.
Secondly, this only applies to eagles of SOME LW PILOT/PO badge makers (probably not all) - not Para, Radio Op or Glider Badges. It MAY apply to some Observer badges as well though. I'm not including the obviously hand-bent swastikas on early LW Para or Observer badge eagles (eg Juncker examples, possibly also some Pilot/PO badge eagles as well, even after vaulting) - I think that was a separate process.
For convenience, I'll only refer to Pilot's Badge eagles, knowing full well that anything I say applies equally to PO Badge eagles.
I've made my observations from a very limited data set. Although in my collection I have Pilot's Badges from only 4 makers, 2 of these are first pattern Juncker examples (a boxed CEJ example and one with the full two-line maker mark) and 3 are from the "unknown" maker. It's relatively easy to pick a genuine badge, but the main observation I'll outline can ONLY be made when two badges, of the same type/pattern and from the same maker, are sitting next to each other (actually they need to be one on top of the other!).
I first made the MAIN observation when I compared my two PO badges from the unknown maker. One is an early tombak wreath, nickel-silver eagle example - the other is a later zinc example. The obverse wreath/eagle characteristics match, so I am fairly certain that only one set of dies is involved. The eagles on the two badges have significantly different degrees of vaulting though - the nickel-silver eagle is significantly more vaulted than the zinc eagle. The reverse of the zinc eagle is almost toally flat - the wing tips have some curving to them though. I have recently acquired an early Pilot's Badge by the "unknown" maker. The reverse of the nickel-silver eagle has very similar vaulting to the PO badge eagle, but there appears to be a subtle difference.
I have also compared my two first pattern (J1) Juncker eagles and the vaulting on the reverse of the CEJ (earlier) eagle appears to be slightly more pronounced that on the C.E. Juncker... example (maybe 5 degrees extra at the wingtips).
So - point 1 - eagles from the same dies from at least two manufacturers have different degrees of vaulting. I can only really explain this by concluding that all (or most) of the vaulting was done post-striking/casting. I do concede that the "riveting" process may introduce some stresses which may affect the vaulting of the eagle, but I don't think this could account for all the differences observed.
My second point can be observed on most vaulted eagles. It does not require a side-by-side comparison, just a bit of logic. If a highly vaulted eagle was die-struck, you'd expect all the edges (with or without shear marks) to be aligned purely vertically, as die-striking is a purely up-down / vertical procedure. So on a vaulted eagle, you'd expect the areas with the highest vaulting to have edges that are NOT prependicular to the top/bottom surfaces of the eagle - they would appear to be on a diagonal/angle to the top/bottom surfaces. This is not what I see on my Pilot's Badge eagles though - all the edges are prependicular to the surfaces of the eagle, so that on vaulted eagles the edges form a sort of radial pattern. That's point 2 - it's hard to describe in text but it's important and I hope you get the gist.
Also, with some thick and highly vaulted eagles, like OMs and B&NLs, it would be almost physically impossible to extract one of those eagles from a die (whether cast or struck) - look at one and think about it!!
Die-casting may explain why some maker's vaulted eagles go against this observation (eg possibly BSW eagles) but most eagles (early Juncker, OM, B&NL, "unknown" maker) look like they are die struck to me as the fine details appear to good for a die-casting.
My theory on how the eagles were vaulted post striking involves a jig or press of some sort with curved upper and lower halves (with or without recessing/alignment markings) and probably leather or hard rubber lined (to avoid marking the eagles but strong enough to handle moderate to hard pressures). I'm sure someone could come up with another theory.
I can't take these observations any further at present - it costs Aus$1000 plus to add a Pilot's Badge these days!! So I'd ask that those members (we know who you are!) who have more than one Pilot/PO Badge of the same pattern by the same maker to get them out and CAREFULLY compare the vaulting on the eagles (no 2 second comparisons!). With J2/J3 Juncker eagles, it doesn't matter what pattern wreaths they are on, we're only talking about the eagles. Any comparisons of vaulting between ZINC and tombak or nickel-silver eagles will be very interesting imo. I'd also be careful with aluminium eagles as they are just too soft and any decent bump/ding while in wear is likely to have pushed them out of shape.
OK, over to you guys (and gals?).
Regards
Mike K
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