Why..........?

[JamesT]

Gentlemen

I think this is a good badge but why would the lightning bolts have been removed? I am told that this was done on purpose to designate defence pilots. Is this correct or just a fantasy because the bolts were damaged perhaps? It looks as though the bolts have been professionally removed rather than just snapped off. edges rounded off etc

I'd love to know what the experts think.

By the way any ideas on the maker?

Many thanks

James

[Hans Kondor]

IMO a fake, based on a RK eagle and Juncker/S&L setup.

[Nordmark]

Agreed, that one is very bad...

[rlimike]

Why?

James, follow the link & you will get the answer to your question.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/war_...nner_badge.htm

[Thomas Durante]

AGREED, a poor reproduction.

Tom

[Tim O.]

Hi James

Although the badge you show does not look like an original, there does seem to have been an official practice of removing the lighting bolts from Radio Operator/Air Gunner Badges for award to Flight Engineers and Air Gunners who were not Radio Operators. I'm not sure when this practice started but I certainly have photo evidence of an Air Gunner (who was not a Radio Operator) wearing the badge with bolts in place (see photo and certificate attached). It may be that when the authorities decided to institute a separate badge for non-radio operators (in June 1942) some ROAG badges were converted for an interim period or when stocks of the correct badge ran out. As initially all air crew other than the pilot and observer received this badge with bolts I imagine there were large stocks available with the lightning bolts.

The Certificate I attach for sinking/damaging a ship was issued by KG30 to successful aircrew. It is a nice historical document as it shows the whole crew, their ranks and roles. As you see, Hoffmann is shown as Bordshutze, i.e. Air Gunner and not Radio Operator (Bordfunker) or Flight Engineer (Bordmechanike).

Best wishes
Tim O.

[Tim O.]

and the certificate showing crew roles.... In case anyone is checking, the ship name is spelt incorrectly and it was the NYHAUS they sank this day.

Best wishes
Tim O.

[Tim O.]

James

By the way, when the lightning bolts were removed this was usually done very neatly and I do think some radio operator badges get sold as air gunner/engineer badges when the lightning bolts have simply broken.

Best wishes
Tim O.

[JamesT]

Gentlemen - many thanks for your comments. Tim, great information may thanks

[Tim Calvert]

Awesome stuff Tim-bo!

Thanks for sharing! Sorta looks like an Assmann badge, no?

[JeremyJ]

..

Tim-O I agree with Tim thanks for sharing the documents. I have seen a few of these documents before which confirm the sinking of a vessel and typically it is KG30 which was the issuing unit.

I know a bit off the thread topic but curious if you or others have seen these to other units.

Regards

Jeremy

[Tim O.]

Hi Jeremy

I have personally only seen this style to KG30. I have several to the man shown here and have seen others for KG30 crew but nothing similar for other units. I guess KG26 torpedo bomber crews would be most likely candidates for something similar but I have not seen anything. I have flugbuchs and papers for a Kustenflieger man, who then joined KG 40 and records hitting ships with several units in his flugbuchs - no certificates similar to these appear to have been issued.

Others may know more.

Best wishes
Tim O.

[JeremyJ]

Hi Jeremy

I have personally only seen this style to KG30. I have several to the man shown here and have seen others for KG30 crew but nothing similar for other units. I guess KG26 torpedo bomber crews would be most likely candidates for something similar but I have not seen anything. I have flugbuchs and papers for a Kustenflieger man, who then joined KG 40 and records hitting ships with several units in his flugbuchs - no certificates similar to these appear to have been issued.

Others may know more.

Best wishes
Tim O.

Thanks Tim

Likewise I have Flugbucher to flyers who have listed shipping "victories" but no corresponding documents such as these from KG30. Nice piece to be sure!

Jeremy