Jmme Para Opinions Please

[Yuri D.]

Let's compare maker marks. Here's mine:

[Yuri D.]

The maker marks look completely different.

Yuri

[J Temple-West]

Hi JD, at the end of the day I think you have to ask yourself the question:

If the badge that Detlev identifies as a copy, is indeed a copy, has your badge any similarities to that copy?
Answer.. yes it does. On a side to side comparison both wreaths come from the same dies..The birds are so close that the only difference I can see are down to hand finishing (shorter tail feathers, on yours, included) The hardware is an exact match as are the style and aged look of the rivets..

The style of the MM is one that I have come to expect to find on copies..

Now, I take it that this badge comes from the group, shown? If so, and this is only speculation, I would expect to see an earlier type badge, in Buntmetal, going on the date of the citation..Yes, it could be a replacement piece but I then have the nagging feeling that its too close to Detlev's copy to be right..
Perhaps the original piece was, at sometime, lost and unknowingly replaced with this copy as has happened with so many vet's..

In short, If I were offered this badge, I would decline..

Only my two pennies..

[Joseph D'Errico]

Dear Jay,


The piece posted by Detlev is a poor side by side comparsion, two totally different pieces. IMHO that was not the best side by side comparison to illustrate a point. I feel that their are some loose ends on this example that should be considered.


Clarification; I have concerns about the piece as well, lets say for a moment we break the piece down , section by section.

If I may, I would like to start with three points,

- Maker mark, does anyone have an example in their possesion of archive files that would match this maker mark ?

- Eagle, same question, does anyone have a JMME Para Eagle that shows the same charteristics on as the example posted.

- Composite; anyone have an original example made from the same composites, I disagree that the badge is buntmedal wreath is zinc. The weight does not demonstrate that it is buntmedal as wellas the hardware. And I feel very comfortable with a working knowledge of zinc from buntmedal.

Look forward to your help,
Best,
JD

[J Temple-West]

JD, I think you should take a closer look at these badges.. I'll just point out one thing that caught my eye, amoungst many others...The lower wing, on both birds, have the same fracture..

The clearest point is that the wreath, on each, is from the same die..

The options, as I see them, are.. that both are from the same series of fakes..
That Detlev has made a mistake and both badges are right..
The decider (IMHO) is the former and I base this on the fact that the MM is not correct for the maker..

Just adding another two pennies worth ...

[Joseph D'Errico]

Dear Jay,



Look at the eagle, they are clearly not from the same die. Look at the feathering , details design ect.

I would also suggest a long look at the wreath, study those oaks and laurel leaves, not the same.

The MM is one that is not one that I have seen before and the question of composite materials concerns me, as well as the rough finish to the reverse.

I am not 100% with out a doubt , voting fake on this piece.

Detlev's example is similer but not a mirror of the example I posted.

Important Factor; The badge I posted was going up on my site , but I was not 100%, so rather than just return the piece without posting it for more background information as well as research would have been a loss for all of us.

So, what we have is at this point in the way of concerns is the MM as well as medal composite and Detlev's example, which IMHO is similier, but not the same.

Best,
JD

[IVAN]

Hi JD,

impression on lid of case can be after few weeks is closed on it, so no proof it is its original case. I would like to see this case too.

Well, wreath is not in buntmetall and my opinion is not in zinc but poor alloy, typichal of the reproductions

rivets are not nice as I wait from JMME

you say wreath is thin and this is not a good point for an original zinc piece

eagle edge is not clean, or is only the photo?

Detlev too has take in comparision a tombak piece, but I don't think he has done a mistake saying is a copy, is evident, and wreath + construction system is egual has this para you show, eagle can be different but they can put another eagle from another die, however they are done both with same material, you can see from worn parts without gilding.

Normally in zinc types of JMME catch is round and not flat.

"MM" in Maker mark normally I see with "V" and "&" is not correct.

unfortunately zinc pieces of JMME are not easy to find, maybe someone have one zinc piece - is good compare even if is a pilot but in zinc - in comparision is better to take another type but same time made then a buntmetall piece because they are totally different in every part and contruction system.

I would not like to have it, sorry.

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hello Ivan,Thank you for taking a look in on this thread.



I almost agree with most of your points,



The piece is definatly zinc or fein zinc, you would have to hold the piece in your hand,the pics do not really illustrate that, hard to catch on a pic,unless very obious.

When I study the wreath and eagle I see many differences.The example posted by me might in the end just be a repo. I would also like to see some other examples.



Best,

JD

[Jos L C]

I've not much to say about this badge.., I've twisted mind..

I can't proof it's original... or that it's fake..

I agree the comparison made by Detlev is poor.., 2 totaly different badges IMO.
The way he shows it says : there's only one original , period .

The badge in question would not be one of my favorites though.

I think this badge,the wreath isn't made of zink but different mixed metals.
The eagle is a softer kind of metal,painted but with a plated back..
I once had a similar badge in hands..

But , what reference do we have to hold on , except that Detlev says it's a fake ?

Presuming it's a fake ,then that is only based on the fact that it doesn't look like a buntmetal piece..?
Comparing it with the socalled fake makes this one a fake too.
That's poor evidence..., what more makes it a fake ?

What I mean to say is that we've to work so many times with badges that aren't obvious fake ,but that we think are fake because we don't know nothing about them .

Lookalikes OK , we go for the differences and find out..

But a badge A and a badge B..., one early.., one made outoff pots and pans..

This doesn't say anything about the badge.., I've no meaning at the moment ,except I don't want it.. personal taste in the first place..

The hard " evidence" ..., I can't find it..
I've some trouble lately to call a badge " fake " forever , sometimes only a handful of people give it a final verdict and a badge is doomed forever etc..

I think there're some very "difficult" badges around and several we'll never know whether they're good or bad.., except when we meet their creator.. and that's the most difficult part !!

I think we need a section " badges we're not quite certain about and need more evidence ".

Jos.

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hello Jos,

Thank you kindly for your post, I think that we take the same approach to pieces .

I also can really appriciate the way you illustrated your opinions. I think you expressed what I was trying to say.


Best,
JD

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hello Gentlemen,

As promised I thought I would share the information gathered from some top dog dealers on the example posted by me. I will not mention names, because I am not a namedropper.

Important; These are the thoughts shared on the piece, based on my pics and not holding the piece in hand.

- The maker mark is not typical for the maker
- The piece looks good, HOWEVER, one that they would not offer because it is too controversial.
- Good piece for someone with a good working knowledge and bought the piece for their own collection with the understanding that they, would always be questioned by others.


Well…….that is more or less it, I wish that I could have provided a more conclusive answer, but that is far as I could take it with hard evidence, at this point.

The pics were sent to three US dealers/ collectors and two German Dealers.

Best,
JD