Luftwaffe Honor Goblet to ME262 Ace - Original?

[juvatwad]

Not sure what you mean with the late war pilot thing. Wegmann was awarded his goblet in January 1943, while he was in ZG 76, a Bf-110 unit.

[VtwinVince]

I would be surprised if this was real. The finish is strange, the details not good and the hallmarks are not crisp. An old friend of mine, Leutnant Helmut Zittier, was a comrade of Wegmann's, and was also awarded the Pokal at the same time. He never received the goblet, and told me that no one in the squadron actually was given the award at this time. So I'm no expert, but I'm skeptical.

[RobertE]

Not sure what you mean with the late war pilot thing. Wegmann was awarded his goblet in January 1943, while he was in ZG 76, a Bf-110 unit.

Yes, I read the date and name on the goblet. I mean that he must have been one of the latter pilots to have received this award. And that he was one of a handful of pilots that were actual aces in the ME262 - thus, one of what I would imagine to have been a fairly small number to have received a pokal and been a ME262 pilot.

[Hirschstein]

Robert you might be interested in how many aces in JG 7 started out as S/E or T/E pilots before flying the jet(s).

for the record Wegmann served in 8./ZG 26 then a transfer into III./ZG 26 Stab where he knew H. Zittier. He never was in ZG 76. I also knew Helmut and interviewed him at length about flying the Bf 110G-2 and many other LW A/C. he was in 5./ZG 26 before moving to the Stab of III. gruppe, great guy super memory and full of stories and life, he will be missed.........

E ~

[VtwinVince]

Hirschstein, you're right, Helmut was a great guy whom I knew for many years. He often talked about Wegmann, and what an incredible pilot he was. Helmut was a member of our Jaegerstammtisch Vancouver back in the 1990's. For the record, he was an Unteroffizier in 7. ZG 26 and was not promoted Leutnant until the very end of the war, having taken part in the last Offizierslehrgang of April, 1945. In fact, his logbook showed an official transfer to JG 7, although he never actually joined the unit before war's end.

[Pierre]

Wegmann can't be compared with Zittier concerning the honor goblet. Zittier got in April 1944 and at that time they only got the document and not the goblet itself anymore.

Pierre

[Tim Calvert]

Here is a goblet currently for sale on emedals site.

It is marked 1.22.43, two days later than the one in question.

Although I can't imagine these being reproduced that well, I still am not really digging the size of the swasi on the Wegmann goblet.

[juvatwad]

Yes, there are a few details on this one mentioned earlier that look funny.

[RobertE]

I think a search of goblets posted on this forum will show that the swastika did not "fill" the center of the EK design equally. The model like mine looks like a number of original examples posted to the forum and identified as good.

I will post more pictures when I get this piece in hand. I don't think that the differences will be measurable when compared to better photos.

regards, Robert

[duboisa1]

Attended Auction

I attended the auction and viewed this item. I was very interested in this piece when I saw it online but became concerned when I saw the finish in person. It has a dull almost ashy white finish with some rust inside. My guess is that it either has water damage or even more likely was over-exposed to liquid silver polish dip. I don't have enough experience with silver (alpaka or sterling) to know whether this can be reversed.

Despite the finish, I hoped to be able to pick it up at a discount. Once the price went over $1000, I was out. Robert, what did it end up going for? Around $1300?

I brought a tape measure with me. The size is correct. I don't have any idea as to the weight. It felt light to me, but I've never handled one, so I don't have a good frame of reference.

I believe it is real. While this was the only piece of militaria posted online, there were a number of other items from the period for sale on sight - field radios, flags, etc. Also, several other flyer related items.

One word of caution - all sales are final at this auction house, so your comment "Again, back it goes if no good, nothing lost" isn't going to work. The goblet is yours, but luckily I think you got a good one.

I hope it cleans up well for you. Nice find.

[Waffenreich]

Robert,

Although the finish has suffered from a combination of poor cleaning (evidenced by remnants of patina around the letters on the base and in some of the pebbling) and probably exposure to some very harsh elements, your Pokal is 100% original. The oakleaf detail on the base band is identical to Weitze's and I'm sure all other originals you can search on this Forum. Your Pokal looks a bit washed out because of the lack of contrast due to the uniformity of that white haze. I'm confident the finish on your Pokal can be corrected, but it should be undertaken only by a person skilled in this. The haze is more than likely the result of a liquid silver cleaning solution that was applied to remove the patina, and not neutralized after application, nor polished out. Send me a PM and we can talk further.

I'm not going to get overly precise on the math here, but as for the engraving and lack of standardization from one Pokal to the next - there were approximately 14,000ish Pokals presented of the roughly 58,000 awarded on paper and approximately 1460 war days that they were awarded in (includes weekends and holidays) between Feb 40 until mid(to late) 43. That means that if you average it out there would be 9.5 goblets engraved every day over these 4 years. Obviously it was not done that way hence multiple engravers would have to have been on task to meet the demand so this should account for slight variations in font, spacing, precise formations of the characters etc.

The "beading" on the underside/inside of the band is the silver solder holding the band to the bowl. This is quite common and the amount visible is a reflection of the skill of the craftsman who assembled it.

Fakes of these are relatively easy to distinguish from the original. The big problem now is the renaming of the band to some hero, but yours doesn't bear these characteristics.
I'd rest easy knowing you have a good piece that just needs a little TLC.

Congrats!

Bob

[RobertE]

One word of caution - all sales are final at this auction house, so your comment "Again, back it goes if no good, nothing lost" isn't going to work.

The auctioneer / owner gave me a personal promise to take it back when he heard my bid amount. He will take it back with no problem, less fees, but I don't want to send it back if it is real, which I believe it to be. I confirmed this since winning it.

I appreciate the eyes-on report on the piece. I have seen lots of dagger crossguards, cap insignia, medal components, and other German silver pieces that have been in water, and this is the effect. Especially the case with chlorinated water, but regular standing water does it as well. Lots of damp basements out there!

[duboisa1]

If the auctioneer told you that, you can trust him. I've been to a number of their auctions and they appear to be very honest. Despite allowing for 6 hours of viewing, they then make it a point to identify all flaws of items. I've even heard them warn people that they think something is a reproduction rather than just letting people make that determination on their own.

And yes, there are a ton of wet basements up here. I can't wait to see the pics when you get it cleaned up.

[juvatwad]

If real, it's the sloppiest constructed goblet I've ever seen.

[RobertE]

Do you mean the bead weld on the bottom? Plenty of examples with the same construction method/level of work shown on the forum. Uneven name band alignment on the upper and lower lip? There are others shown with the same offset. What is it exactly that you are seeing?

The metal cup body, base, and name ring were machine rolled/stamped and welded - are you saying the stamping is blurred, a defective strike, or what?

Look at the beading on the EK shown on the last example. It is not distinct, with half-formed lines in the beading, and the swastika is by no means completely symmetrical.