Announcement

**Tim B.** · 07-20-2010, 12:47 PM

Looks like a well-worn, though cleaned, PO badge to me.

Early CEJ with the cutouts between the legs. Rivets have been worked on probably to tighten the eagle at some point and we see this on other worn examples by various makers.

Wreath looks original brass or gilt colored and not repainted IMO. I say it's a cleaned badge due to the lack of dirt and grime in the nooks and crainies.

Frank was always a stand-up guy and I would be surprised if it turned out to be anything than what he advertised the piece to be.

Tim

**Scott C.** · 07-20-2010, 01:51 PM

Can you post an off-center, close-up photo of the catch? Curious that it appears to be flat wire rather than round wire.

**Tim B.** · 07-20-2010, 01:56 PM

Hi Scott,

I think the material is flat stock or filed down. May be repaired/replaced as the badge has seen better days. Note the rivet repair showing on the left side of the wreath when viewing from the front, indicative of some repair work on the badge.

Seems we have seen this flat type catch before on early originals though.

Tim

**Thomas Durante** · 07-20-2010, 03:15 PM

Hi guys,

In my opinion this one has been refinished. Whether or not it was originally a PO or just a regular pilot badge...who can be sure.

I think it is refinished because of the modern look of the paint on the wreath, its just not the typical high quality fire gilding we are used to seeing on early Juncker pieces. By every account, the "CEJ" badges were the earlies Juncker badges and have very high quality fire gilding. This badge seems to have a much thicker, dull gold finish which looks more like paint or lacquer rather than gold plating or fire gilding. This is most evident in the top, right side of the reverse of the badge (see my red arrows).

The eagle is also finished in a modern silver paint. You can see that although the rivets are clearly repaired, they come through to the front of the eagle and also has the silver finish covering them. There should be NO silver finish on the front of these repaired rivets, so the fact that they are finished with the rest of the eagle tells me the silver finish was applied AFTER the rivets were repaired. I can see why some collectors would think this was an aluminum badge, because of the grainyness of the modern silver paint. A far cry from the nice silver plating found on original early Juncker POs.

I agree that Frank is a great guy and would NEVER knowingly sell someone a badge that he wasn't sure of. But we all make mistakes and he is not flawless. Because it comes from Frank, I really tried not to think this was a refinished badges. But I just cannot get past my observations above and I am sure he has his reasons why he thought this was an original PO. I would love to hear his response as well as some other opinions on it.

Tom

Attached Files

**Tim B.** · 07-20-2010, 03:59 PM

Umm, good arguments Tom, I do see what you're referring to.

Wish Frank was still here to discuss this one. I do believe he had shown this one years back here, however, I do not remember the concensus of the discussion.

You're correct, Frank's reputation is pretty rock solid, but you have to base the decisions on the piece standing alone.

Tim

**Scott C.** · 07-20-2010, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Tim B. View Post

Seems we have seen this flat type catch before on early originals though.

OK - thanks Tim.

**Larry Lipps** · 07-20-2010, 04:42 PM

I agree with Tom, the early finish didn't flake like this appears to have.

**Frank Heukemes** · 07-20-2010, 05:29 PM

Hi gents,

My comment about the circumstances:

I was asked by the current owner to look at this and comment. Firstly, it is correct that I owned it for many years and sold it about a year ago to its new owner. It was sold as a repaired, heavily used badge and with a (very likely wartime) replaced hook. The price reflected that conditon in every way. Even if it was a CEJ pilot badge, the price would still have been more than right.

My observations about the finish:

1) The finish of the eagle had to be applied before it was refixed or retightened to the wreath, because that finish does not stop before the wreath on the reverse, it rather goes under it.

2) The finish IS unusual, but it looks "old", not applied yesterday, or a year ago or ten years ago. The scans make it appear much brighter than it actually is.

3) Also, there seems to be absolutely no silver finish under the golden finish of the wreath. This does not lead me to believe that it was a pilot badge at some point in time.

4) The solder of the hook goes over the golden finish, so the repair was after the finish was applied. This allows no conclusion, but it is an interesting observation.

It surely is not the prettiest CEJ PO badge one can buy, but it was used, worn, repaired and it seems to have a lot of history. I always thought of it as a PO badge, mainly because of fact number 3).

**Tim B.** · 07-20-2010, 08:14 PM

Hi Frank! Been a long time and nice to see you here on this one.

One thing I wanted to add to my last comments centered around the PIC's we go off of sometimes and that once magnified to such a degree as they are here, we can see things or think we see things that really aren't.

Tom points out a couple areas in question and I have learned over time taking close-up PICS, sometimes the magnification, lighting and the way lighting/shadows can play with small details, I always refer to the one with the item actually in hand when I have questions such as this.

Looking at the reverse, what can you say on the discoloration and what appears to be flaking of a painted finish around the rivets? Is it actual flaking, or a play of the lighting and the darker color is actually on top of the gilted finish?

I know sometimes in magnification, incised lettering can appear almost in high-relief due to the angle of light hitting it and suspect this might be what we are looking at here as well. I know I have looked at badges before closely and asked for additional PIC's exactly for reasons such as this.

Best,
Tim

**Thomas Durante** · 07-20-2010, 08:48 PM

Hi Frank, thanks for the reply on this one. I agree with Tim, good to see you around, even if its only briefly.

I understand all your points, but in my opinion the entire badge was taken apart when it was refinished in my opinion. That would explain why we don't see silver finish on the wreath, or gold finish on the eagle. My thought is that the eagle was taken off the wreath and refinishe. This probably ruined the orignal rivets, and the need for new ones fitted onto the eagle.

I think the eagle was silver finished while it was off the wreath. In turn, the wreath was painted in gold, while the eagle was still off the wreath. Then, they were mated back together and the rivets crudely hammered flat. That is why we don't see any silver finish on the wreath, or any gold finish on the eagle. That is also why we see the gold finish worn away around the rivets, because the eagle was put on AFTER the gold finish was applied to it.

That is my scenario of how this badge was created. Ofcourse its only my opinion, and I do not know for sure. I really base this on the look of the gold and silver finish, it is just not the type we encounter on early, Juncker Pilot Observer badges. In addition, the silver finish isn't even something we see on later, mid-war Pilot badges in my opinion. Its just different.

Would you guys be willing to test the finish with some acetone? Some postwar finishes are resistant to it, so this may not be 100% conclusive, but if some of the finish DOES come off, it would be another indicator of post war application IMO.

Tom

**germanmedals** · 07-21-2010, 03:39 AM

Concerning all facts and comments I have a question.
How much would somebody be prepared to pay for this badge?
I guess the most common answer would be "As for a repaired pilot CEJ",...so how much is that?

**germanmedals** · 07-21-2010, 03:57 AM

Here are some more pictures on the daylight

Attached Files

**germanmedals** · 07-21-2010, 03:57 AM

2

Attached Files

**germanmedals** · 07-21-2010, 03:58 AM

3

Attached Files

Announcement

Pilot observer CEJ discussion

Pilot observer CEJ discussion

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread