LW Tank Badge - Were They Or Were They Not Produced?

[RobertE]

...and Steve's badge. Notice that the finishes are not the same, even though both badges are original, late and made in the same style.

I was hopeing to focus more on the discussion as to whether any new info had become available on the EXISTENCE of the badge - discount it as a fake, or cautiously move towards acceptance.

[Mic Heinrich]

Along the lines of produced in small quantities (prototypes), there is one on offer by Wietz - converted GAB. Anyone game?

[mmiller]

I agree the others, that the first badge, and the one offered by Niemann, are different for the stated reasons. I remember when Detlev sold the thing. I remember all the buzz on the Forums. The 'round' cut-outs are obvious, if studied carefully. Same with the 'pin', and the others 'faults'.

I don't believe that these badges were ever made pre45. Possibly a paper award, or an entry. Some documents have surfaced. Some have been proven to be fake. Never a picture of one being worn. Nothing definative.

As an avid Luft Collector, I wish I beieved in these badges. And I wished I owned a real one. .....BUT .....



Regards,
Mark

[RobertE]

Mark, it sounds like these will have to stay in my "maybe" box for a little longer until move evidence surfaces, one way or the other.

I appreciate the inputs and all observations. regards, Robert

[Thomas Durante]

These were instituted on the same date as the LW Close Combat Clasp - November 1944. For that particular badge, I have found a few documents noting the "CCC der Luftwaffe", but by all accounts the document was accompanied by the typical Army version of the award. Goring personally wanted to make a presentation of these LW CCCs, and even he couldn't get his hands on any and was forced to hand over the typical Army version. So if the "fat man" couldn't get his hands on any of them to present, that speaks very negatively against their production in my opinion. Additionally, not one photo has ever surfaced of the LW CCC in wear (only 1 blurry one, but by all accounts its a typical Recon LW flight clasp).

The same scenario would likely be the case for these LW Tank badges in my opinion.

tom

[Gene]

Having known to HG Panzer Division vets when I lived in Germany, both of whom told me they never saw either the Luftwaffe tank battle badge or Luftwaffe close combat clasp, I go with what they said versus what Detlev and others say.

[RobertE]

Gene, I've interviewed hundreds of WWII Marines, and their knowledge of uniform items was limited to what they saw, not what was issued. I do appreciate the observation, however.

It's going to take a good clear photo or solid vet providence (rare these days) to move the ball down the field on this one. There's already authorization (to produce it) and award documents located, but wartime proof it was actually worn evades us. I guess once that surfaces, we can attack which of the myriad of examples offered is the correct type.

I just thought I'd throw it out there and see if there had been such a discovery - doesn't look like it.

regards, Robert

[Gene]

Robert,

Indeed, these were awarded on paper and the vets I knew said as much. What a soldier was actually given however is a different story. I know that when they were awarded the close combat clasp- on paper- what they actually got was the Heer/SS version. I don't think comparing Marines with HG vets is a fair analogy given the German's love of having many specific combat badges to award. I think a German vet would know a Luftwaffe tank badge from a Heer example, who was awarded such a badge, and would recognize such a badge affixed to a comrade should they cross paths.

Gene

[PAB_Collector]

It's very interesting these badges surfaced post 1985 in quantity, like some mystery stepping of the shadows.

Perhaps what we should be asking is not "what do you think of this one?", rather, are some big name dealers are trying to give credence to a badge to make it "legit", thus facilitating future believers, and buyers.

I do not like the badge in post #1 at all, and I would never spend the kind of money people like Detlev have charged on one of these badges. Without CONCRETE evidence to show they were produced, physically awarded, or shown in wear, I would avoid this minefield at all costs.

[RobertE]

"Perhaps what we should be asking is not "what do you think of this one?"..."

Fellows, this is not what I asked anywhere in this thread. The discussion immediately went to whether it matched the design of the Detlev badge, although that determination was answered to my satisfaction here http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthrea...highlight=tank . In that thread, the cast type appears to be the most likely candidate.

Since we don't know if these badges were produced at all (during the war), comparing it to other badges was not something I was going to get into, though that's kind of the path we took.

I have lots of badges. It's all opinion in terms of whether the posted badge is up to late war production standards - I say it easily is and posted badges that illustrating exactly how low the LW badges could sink. Detlev badge is also a poorly made badge in less than perfect condition, and has no more providence than any other example under discussion (though I agree it's a good candidate).

Again - until hard evidence surfaces on these, we can speculate as to what was made, and what it would look like if it was. The reason I posted this thread - did they exist - was to discuss new evidence, either way.

regards, Robert

[Scott C.]

Oops - comment deleted as it was already mentioned earlier...

[RobertE]

Definate differences, thanks Scott!

[Marc Garlasco]

Just for the record, I also do not believe these were ever produced. I will not rehash everyone's comments, but having handled many variations at shows and also seeing photos on the net I do not believe any are period. The total lack of period photos of one in wear also has a huge bearing on my opinion. That said, it is possible a prototype was made for authorization of the design. But we should not confuse a prototype that MAY or MAY NOT have ever existed with the crap tossed onto the market by thieves to steal money. IMHO