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**sb98** · 02-16-2004, 03:09 AM

Hi Matt,

I'm sure you're right, not all dug badges are from graves. It's a growing industry in the east as the market demand and prices go up. There are plenty of graves to loot there, and how does one really know if they're buying one of these? I don't think they're all bad, it's just not for me (plus I don't really care for them). I would hate to think of giving these scum bags motivation to dug up more fallen soldiers for a quick buck.

Tim

**Gerd Becker** · 02-16-2004, 04:17 AM

Originally posted by Tim L.

Hi Matt,

I'm sure you're right, not all dug badges are from graves. It's a growing industry in the east as the market demand and prices go up. There are plenty of graves to loot there, and how does one really know if they're buying one of these? I don't think they're all bad, it's just not for me (plus I don't really care for them). I would hate to think of giving these scum bags motivation to dug up more fallen soldiers for a quick buck.

Tim

Hi all,

I agree in this point. IMO the most ground-dug stuff are thrown away pieces by soldiers on the retreat. I am sure, some of this badges are from graves, but they are the exception.

To the shown badge: IMO still 40 Euro worth.

best,
Gerd

**Frank Heukemes** · 02-16-2004, 06:28 AM

Most members from abroad might not be aware of this but in additon to the above mentioned possibilities Germany´s gardens and private properties (and rivers, ponds) are full of hidden awards, weapons, helmets, etc.
It is very common to find horded items from more than one person, because e.g a family father was collecting ALL Third Reich stuff from the whole family and buried the whole lot in 1945.
Unfortunately, most of this stuff is rotten today.

**Peter Wiking** · 02-16-2004, 07:59 AM

Matt L.

I dont want to put salt in any wounds, but it looks like they have painted the badge with silver paint. Be carefull as i think the fakers create "original ground dugs" to. One can do alot with some acid and 6 month in the ground.

Cheers my friend.
Peter Wiking

**Bill Grist** · 02-16-2004, 08:09 AM

Matt, No problem with metal detecting finds, This is great uncovering of history,and most accepted on Civil war battle fields etc.. Some 10 years ago we had a Russian show up at our NCGCA club show with some grave dug artifacts, HE was not a historian or trying to find out the ID if the person in the grave just a profitier, he also had picts. of the graves with bones etc.. We would not let him set up.. To scary and errie, and disrespectful to any person who had died for his country...... BILL

**tinmantis** · 02-16-2004, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by Peter Wiking

Matt L.

I dont want to put salt in any wounds, but it looks like they have painted the badge with silver paint. Be carefull as i think the fakers create "original ground dugs" to. One can do alot with some acid and 6 month in the ground.

Cheers my friend.
Peter Wiking

Yes, I also think this is a 'dangerous' collecting area. With prices going through the roof, it's easy to 'age' a repro, even a bad repro, and sell it as 'ground dug' for much more $$$'s. You've got to be very careful.

Although, saying that, I like my awards with a bit of 'age'. I'd prefer a beaten-up badge, than an unissued one. (and prefer the price!)
I find Un-issued mint awards extremely interesting to learn from, but seem 'dead' to me. I feel it's almost like collecting the 'design' of the awards, rather than the history. And the history, is what drew me into this hobby, rather than 1940's German medal design.

Ground dug items are interesting, but I'd feel quite wary of their origins. I'd like to have some, but with no visible 'die characteristics' etc it's hard. You're basically putting your faith in the story/dealer that goes with it. And I've learnt not to listen to the accompanying 'stories' to much
just rambling on...

regards
jon

**Frank Heukemes** · 02-16-2004, 11:18 AM

Well, even in this corroded state one can tell it is an original GWL pilot´s badge.

**Matt L** · 02-16-2004, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by BILL GRIST

Matt, No problem with metal detecting finds, This is great uncovering of history,and most accepted on Civil war battle fields etc.. Some 10 years ago we had a Russian show up at our NCGCA club show with some grave dug artifacts, HE was not a historian or trying to find out the ID if the person in the grave just a profitier, he also had picts. of the graves with bones etc.. We would not let him set up.. To scary and errie, and disrespectful to any person who had died for his country...... BILL

I'm totally with you there Bill- I certainly don't condone graverobbing and I, myself, only do business with a couple of guys in Eastern Europe whom I am certain are on the up-and-up. One who posts here is excellent about notifying the WASt if he ever discovers remains on his metal-detecting excursions. I too have seen pictures of piles of bones and some extremely disrespectful assemblages- disgusting to say the least.

**Matt L** · 02-16-2004, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by Peter Wiking

Matt L.

I dont want to put salt in any wounds, but it looks like they have painted the badge with silver paint. Be carefull as i think the fakers create "original ground dugs" to. One can do alot with some acid and 6 month in the ground.

Cheers my friend.
Peter Wiking

Indeed Peter I would agree that it's not hard to age something to a certain point, however there is a lot that cannot be reproduced except by time. In this case, I know the guy who found it and trust that it's not a messed-with fake. I don't think it's paint- apparently the GWL Flugzeugführerabzeichen had a very bright-finished wreath- presumably plated- which is what it looks like to me- like the plating is peeling. I have an early heavy Allgeminesturmabzeichen that is like this.

Thanks for the warning though

I honestly don't think there's too much danger in fakes being artifically aged to make them more difficult to detect- ground-dug stuff usually doesn't cost that much so would it really be worth it to destroy a fake that could be sold for good money? Besides, for the most part I only go for ground-dug stuff that's in half-decent condition- stuff that can be evaluated. I went back to all the threads I could find about the GWL Flugzeugführerabzeichen on here and compared their images to this one to determine if it was likely authentic. It looks okay to me, and I can say that about all the other dug badges I have. I honestly have more confidence buying a dug badge than a nice one- because they're far more likely to be real as they are of significantly reduced value (or none) to most collectors.

**Matt L** · 02-16-2004, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by Frank H

Well, even in this corroded state one can tell it is an original GWL pilot´s badge.

That's one reason I kinda liked it- it's identifiable

**John T** · 02-16-2004, 02:50 PM

Is that badge zinc or buntmetal...I just sold a nice zinc one that was not ground dug on e-stand for $ 275.00, so I can not see a ground dug piece going for the same amount of money.

John

**John T** · 02-16-2004, 02:52 PM

Also, just because something is ground dug does not mean it is real--I am not referring to the pictured badge though...I remember the fakers of SS buckles would bury them or do something to them to make them look ground dug to add credence to the story that they were real.

**atcase** · 02-16-2004, 03:57 PM

Hi All,
Matt if you like it, by all means buy it. Even though these are not my scene as with regard to authenticity do not always count on it if the prices are starting to rise, i am sure some devious turd is outside in thier garden now burying repros / damaged badges, already artificially aged for sale in the year 2010

Ashley

**deejay** · 02-17-2004, 04:21 PM

Do not agree with you guys on this one.

I bet it will make more than $100.00 on ebay if you could offer it.
Though in bad shape it is still a piece of history and has a swastika.

If someone offered me that badge I would pay up to $120.00 for it, and if it where Görings first pilot´s badge found in his former garden with a COA I would pay $1000.00 wouldn't you?

Just stiring the soup...

**Richard** · 02-18-2004, 10:33 PM

Matt, here are the only things you need to consider. Is the badge worth the price at which it is offered to you, and are you concerned about being able to sell it at the same or higher price sometime later? The first issue is the most important as we all are willing to pay what others consider a good or even a premium price for those pieces that we really want. The second issue is of importance as well, as most of us have a satisfaction in knowing that those items we collect will be worth more than we paid for them someday. However, the second issue may not be as important as the first because those items that we really love will stay in our collections until we absolutely need the money or until we die. At that point, what we paid for them is of little relevance.
Richard V

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