Retired Pilot's Badge - Question

[90th Light]

Thanks Tom.

then it would appear that what we do have is the two schools of thought on this one;

the summation that I have put forward in post 119 and the summation that you have put forward in post 120.

What is needed, is of course more information either way so we might just have to wait and see if more develops.

Even though we have not yet found a beyond doubt example from a veteran bring back, ground digging or a German pilot who still has/ had his badge, we do have the salesman sample boards which were picked up in 1945. Now this "chicken leg" version was on those boards so we know that design was in existance at war's end in 45 plus we known that the German authorities freed up the selling of LW badges in 1944 and again allowed it through LDO outlets so hence the need for an "L/" stamp.

What would help at this stage, is if any member who has a salesmans board with this badge could show us what is on the reverse of the badge on the board. That is an important question which needs to be answered.

The "L/11" on the retired pilot badges appears to be a slightly bigger version of what Deumer used on their wound badges or EK spanges etc so it certainly shows their style and a bigger stamp would be justified for a badge bigger than a wound badge.

The 1944 & 45 price lists show that badge so someone had to be able to make them or supply them and there is nothing really to stop Deumer or S&L doing this esp. after the Juncker factory is bombed to pieces. Also with Deumer making only such a limited range of aircrew badges then may be they had the potential to add a new one to the range at that stage. Keep in mind as well that to the Germans in 1944/ 45, this badge was not going to be as rare as it is today. They would have had a waiting list of potential pilots eligible for it and had the war gone on then the list was just going to get bigger so there was an expectation that more badges were needed esp as pilots came of the reserve list and retired fully which many never got the chance to do as things turned out.

Your comments about the oblong catch are an interesting observation which may well hold up but how come I have a veteran "RS" badge (see post 107) with an oblong plate and wire catch ? After all "RS" is even less likely than Deumer and Deumer was at least very close to S&L who used oblong plate & wire catches plus Deumer used oblong plates on the hinges of some of their zinc badges. An "RS" with one is actually a lot harder to explain than a Deumer with one. I do agree however that the oblong plate on the catch is rare for Deumer or RS but then manufacturers in 1944 in Germany and Austria had to use what they could get their hands on to keep the wheels of industry turning.

No argument from me that this chicken type badge was used as the basis of the 1957 version which may well show that the Juncker badge had gone due to bombing or the wars end but the later 44/45 zinc type is still around to use in the 50's.

Name a badge which has not been found copied with the "L/58" mark post war. Just because a badge turns up with "L/58" does not mean that the badge it was copied from is necessarily bad but I do agree that he covered the whole range of possibilities with the L/58 mark. At the start he was adding the L/58 to left over wartime stock. Only when he ran out of the ones or parts made in the war-time did he start to strike them again and add new types to the range. How many times have you seen L/58 on these "chicken leg" retired pilots ? ( Many in fact seem to be unmarked).

I am not arguing Tom, just trying to make sure both sides of the possibilities are covered fully. This is an interesting study to say the least so lets see if more comes out of the woodwork on this one way or the other,

Chris

[Leroy]

5. Exact same type of badge can be found with questionable 1957 hardware. Sure these can be fakes of an original badge, but without dimensions of both types, how can we be sure they are not all 1 and the same exact fake??



Tom

I said a couple of days ago that we needed the information that Tom mentions in the quote above. Here are the measurements on the one I have for display and which I posted here:
Height: 54.18 mm
Width: 41.18 mm
Weight: 26.05 g

Sometimes you have to "go with your gut" in this hobby of ours.
My instinct (which may not be reliable, but is something I count on) is telling me that the one I have (after paying more attention to it than I have in years* because of this thread!) is a COPY, in zinc, of the real type which showed up on the "salesman boards" from Ludenscheid. I also have a hunch that the one that Chuck got from John T. (shown in Post #27) is an original of that type, so it would be very helpful if Chuck could (and everyone else, too!) give measurements on his. Chuck's is, as I understand it, not marked.

I went back last night and looked at the "emedals" site where the "boards" ended up for sale. This particualr board (if you type in 'Luftwaffe') can still be seen, although it has been sold. There is no mention of any type of mark, although that may have been an oversight on Barry's part.

For what it is worth, I am 100% convinced that the "boards" were comprised of original leftover stock of Ludenscheid companies at the end of the war and are a "snapshot in time" (whether we like what we see or not). That, in combination with the reality that these badges were approved for retail sale before November, 1944, and further in combination with the knowledge that S&L considered itself to be very much a "full service company", prompts me to now believe that these badges were made by S&L during the last 6 months of the war.

* (the "shear marks" from a die strike appear, under high magnification, not as crisp as I would like them to be)

[Thomas Durante]

Your comments about the oblong catch are an interesting observation which may well hold up but how come I have a veteran "RS" badge (see post 107) with an oblong plate and wire catch ? After all "RS" is even less likely than Deumer and Deumer was at least very close to S&L who used oblong plate & wire catches plus Deumer used oblong plates on the hinges of some of their zinc badges. An "RS" with one is actually a lot harder to explain than a Deumer with one. I do agree however that the oblong plate on the catch is rare for Deumer or RS but then manufacturers in 1944 in Germany and Austria had to use what they could get their hands on to keep the wheels of industry turning.

Hi Chris,

In the case of Souval, the oblong catchplate is a rare occurance but we do know of several examples. There are a few Souval IABs that have been found with the oblong plate and also a few GABs. So, there is a precedent for Souval using it rarely at some point in the war for a few of their zinc products. However, their use of a flat wire catch is also easily documented, it can be found on many of their zinc products like their CCCs, PABs, etc.

That same thing can not be said about Deumer, there is no precedent here. This is complicated by the fact that Deumer combat badges and their LW AGs & ROAGs are some of the most common type of badges to be found. So if they did use the an oblong catchplate and/or flatwire catch during the war, chances are one would have turned up already on such a common badge IMO.

What makes much more sense to me is that these are S&L badges, but with a spurious L11 maker mark. The hardware is more inline with wartime S&L products and that would also explain why the L11 mark doesn't match any other mark found on Deumer badges. I would be more inclined to believe this is an S&L product. The only real question for me is WHEN it was produced.

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

For what it is worth, I am 100% convinced that the "boards" were comprised of original leftover stock of Ludenscheid companies at the end of the war and are a "snapshot in time" (whether we like what we see or not).

Hi Leroy,

Thanks for your dimensions. Now if we can get a few others, it would certainly be helpful to compare.

I know this is a contentious topic with you Leroy, but please enterain this one question of mine: How do we know the boards are infact "salesman" boards and how do we know they were obtained in 1945? US serviceman have been in Germany from 1945 until this very day, and not all vets came home in 1945. Have one or more of these boards been confirmed to have come from a vet that actually came home in May 1945? I guess another way to ask this is "what is the EARLIEST date these boards can be traced to?"

I think I read somewhere that these boards were not actually salesman boards, but souveniers made on S&L lunch boards and sold to servicemen after the war. I agree that these could very well have been made up of leftover wartime stock.

Thanks Leroy.

Tom

[Leroy]

Hi, Tom,
I have no problem with your question.
Ludenscheid (except for the very first couple of months) was in the British Zone of Occupation. Although a few boards were brought back by some U.S. "non-occupation" troops (ask Bob Hritz and some other older collectors who bought directly from vets in the early day - they will confirm this), most of these boards (which, again, were not "salesman's" boards at all, but boards assembled, generally using factory canteen placemats, for sale or barter to troops) were brought back by British troops. The ones that appeared on this Forum were in the effects of a British officer and appeared in a British auction. That officer apparently brought them back shortly after the end of the war. Although a very few of the items on the boards (the Retired Pilot, the APB and the Spanish Cross with droop-tail eagles) have been controversial (because no one had seen them before), the rest of the items were totally standard products of multiple Ludenscheid-based firms (including original Knights Crosses from S&L), some lacking their final finishes. It may be worth noting that many items in the Imperial War Museum match the ones on these boards and there are multiple photos in existence of British troops, immediately following British occupation, festooned with mint examples of Nazi decorations and badges. If not from Ludenscheid, where did these come from in those early days?
As part and parcel of their occupation, the British rigidly enforced rules against any sort of action which glorified Nazism, and this included (at least in the case of Assmann) some destruction of dies. This has also been documented by interviews with a former director of Assmann. Most real combat troops returned home in the late Summer and early Fall of 1945. Was there really "new production" (i.e. new die-stamping) during that time (or, for that matter, during the course of the British occupation of Ludenscheid)? Not if you believe the comments of people who were there at the time or if you study how the Occupation was actually conducted.
If you speak to soldiers who served in Germany after the war (and I have), you will hear many interesting stories of how, and where, they obtained souvenirs. NONE that I have ever heard were able to buy stuff off the street, in the way these boards were bartered in the early period. Show me multiple acquisitions of these pieces by later Occupation soldiers. You can't, because it didn't happen.
Many collectors today, while they pay great attention to "collector stories", have virtually no knowledge whatsoever of what the postwar atmosphere really was, or how occupation was conducted. Americans were fairly strict, but the British were very strict. Vienna, on the other hand (and this is why I believe Souval was able to flourish) was virtually an open city, where most anything could and did happen. Russians, British, Americans, French - all with a "piece of the action" but no one really calling the shots as "the final authority" because of political infighting.
By the way, you say "I think I read somewhere that these boards were not actually salesman boards, but souveniers made on S&L lunch boards and sold to servicemen after the war". You read that here because people like Bob Hritz and others (including me) wrote it!

Best,
Leroy

P.S. (Adding this as an "edit") - They weren't just "S&L lunch boards. Deumer placemats and also, I believe, Assmann, show up as well, as do simple pieces of cardboard and even wooden boards. The contents of the boards come from multiple manufacturers, but all are linked by "the Ludenscheid connection", so you see S&L, Assmann, Deumer, FLL, etc. etc. The production of military badges, decorations, insignia, belt buckles, etc., was a central, if not THE central, business activity in Ludenscheid. The people who bartered and sold these for the necessities of life had, quite simply, lost their livlihood with Germany's defeat. It took years for these companies to come back (some never did) and some even ended up making military insignia for Allied forces. Others made tablewear or other items for the civil economy. All had a very hard time and it's a safe bet that none wanted to do anything which would irritate the occupying powers.

[chuck k]

have been reading this post closely,and was going to ask the goods and bads of my badge(post 27).will try to get the measurements asap.thanks
chuck

[90th Light]

This is turning out to be one of the most interesting threads that I have been involved in for some time. The sharing of knowledge here is fantastic plus the theories/ experience being put forward is enlighting to say the least.

The salesmen sample boards seem to hold the key. I personally find this period of June 1945 to 1946 quite fascinating and recommend fully the After the Battle publication "The Third Reich Then and Now"

In this book you will read that an order followed by a law completely ban the swaz in late 46, early 47 (the book is full of pictures of the swaz being physically removed from German society at that time) so to make new badges would have become very risky indeed plus in the period of 46, 47, 48 etc the factories in Ludenschield have been bombed or made disfunctional to the point where regular war-time production would have been difficult in more ways than one. The stocks and work in progress of what had been made before the wars end could of course have been hidden/ stored carefully and can thus be traded. In fact late 45, 46 is the time of barter anything you have in order to survive.

I will note weights and measurements of my badge as soon as I can and post these here. Another thing to consider also is the possibility that the the "L/11" mark has been added post war to enchance an otherwise unmarked "S&L" badge. That would not be the first time that has happened and would explain the catch plate & wire hook on mine.

Great effort guys ,

Chris

p.s. will have another look at the strike marks on mine and try to get an image posted if we can get a clear shot of them.

[Leroy]

Just for reference, we should probably stop referring to the boards as "salesman's boards". This was just a term made up by people who didn't know what they really were and we're all guilty (including me!) of using that term. Instead of perpetuating this mistake, maybe we should call them "barter boards" or something similar.

Real salesman boards are entirely different and generally were housed in a nice travel case.

[90th Light]

How about "Salesmens Barter Boards"

Might just describe it nicely,

Chris

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Leroy, thanks very much for providing this info, it is always good to have it written down for future collectors to see and research. I know you have written much of this before, but sometimes it takes a few times of people seeing it for it to fully sink in. Thanks also for clearing up the "salesman board" issue, I think we can ALL now agree that these were put together as "souveneir boards" for the occupation forces.

So if this were the case, do you really think S&L would STOP production once their leftover stock ran out?? In one sentence you say that doing anything to glorify the swastika was forbidden, but then it is somewhat contradictory to say that these boards were being sold as souveniers after the war. I can totally see these boards being put together from leftover stock, but when that ran out, NO ONE would be the wiser if S&L pumped out a few more batches and just continued to sell the boards. Selling to souvenier hungry GIs was probably just as lucrative a business as selling to the German Government. Given the fact that it was also probably the only source of income a badge producer could have in immediately after the war, why is it hard to believe they continued to produce in 1946, 1947, 1949, etc? If you agree with that, then who would know if S&L sold something that was made in April of 1945 or October of 1945?? No one can possibly know the difference.

You say that one of these boards was in a British officers effects and he came back "apparently soon after the war". How soon? Was it in 1945, 1946 or 1949?? When you talk to vets 60 years after the war, things can all run together IMO.

Tom

[Leroy]

Tom,
I'd love to be able to answer all your questions, but I don't know all the answers!

First, about remaining stock - Let's first get over the idea that these boards were only S&L stock. As you know, Ludenscheid was the home of not only S&L, but Deumer, Assmann, FLL, GWL and several others. It was THE center for badge production. Products from multiple manufacturers appear on these boards. What do you think the remaining stock would be, including unfinished pieces? Certainly thousands of pieces, enough to satisfy demand for years and years (you said so yourself in the 26 page thread on these boards when they appeared).

Second, whether S&L (and others) could have kept cranking it out and "NO ONE would be the wiser" - Really? You don't think firms were visited by the Allied authorities periodically? It WAS against the law to do it (at least until 1955). You want to piss off the people who have the power to close your doors, cut off your utilities, lock you up and otherwise make your life (what little you have left) even more miserable, for the slightest offense (especially when you just finished a war where British cities were bombed and thousands of civilians in Britain killed)? Is it so easy to crank up large machinery without anyone knowing? Remember again the comments of the former Assmann director (mentioned on GCA) that the very idea of re-production in the immediate postwar years (suggested to him by the collectors who were interviewing him) was a concept that he was very surprised anyone would seriously entertain.

Third, the idea that there is some contradiction in the open selling of leftover stock to Allied occupation troops and the ban on the illegal commencement of re-manufacture - First, we have no idea how long the sale of these boards continued or, further, how long it took to exhaust existing stock, or, even further, how big a demand there actually was and how long it lasted. We DO know that in places like Solingen, people like Jim Atwood were still finding thousands of daggers and dagger parts into to 1960's. They were still there BECAUSE NO ONE CARED. It's my personal feeling that there was really very little demand as the war receded into the past, people began re-building their lives and became immersed in the "new world" of the late 40's and early 50's, with a whole new set of challenges. We tend to look back at those times through our eyes as collectors today. I suggest to you that such a perspective is totalled skewed. But, to answer your question as best I can - it is one thing to sell what's still around (or what can be finished without much effort)(which could have been the case for years and years) and quite another to actually re-start the illegal factory production line of Nazi material. I can see souvenir hunting being given the "blind eye" (especially when "it's just some of our boys and they've just been through a hell of a war" but I can't see the authorities continuing to turn a blind eye (if there was even a need to do so) into the late 40's. Could it have occurred? Certainly. Did it? If it did, where is all the great stuff brought back by occupation (non-combat) soldiers? Everybody and his brother (and you are right, there have been thousands of soldiers in Germany since the war) should have something stashed away. If it's out there, I haven't seen it. The "proof is in the pudding", as they say. Where is "the pudding"? Where are the thousands of Type "B" RK's, WITHOUT BEADING FLAWS (I am convinced those with flaws didn't appear until after the first 1957 version came out) we should see if S&L cranked it back up in the late 40's and 50's. You certainly see some sold ("opinion divided" - Detlev Niemann) but they are really few and far between and demand prices over $1K. Dietrich couldn't even find some for inclusion in his book. Why is this the case if real production could have resumed without anyone being the wiser?

Well, I know I haven't probably contributed much by the above, but my wife is giving me the evil eye, we are expecting 18 inches of snow tomorrow and we have done virtually no Christmas shopping (were going to get going this weekend), so I need to stop this and switch gears and do some internet shopping before I get the chop. As a final thought, it would be nice if someone like Robin Lumsden or Gordon Williamson could chime in here, as Ludenscheid was, after all, in the BRITISH zone and they could probably share information which would be very interesting.

Best,
Leroy

P.S. Dave-B, a member here, was at the original auction in England. Perhaps he will remember the story of when the British officer came back. My impression (no time to read the 26 page thread again) was that he came back in 1945 or, at the latest, 1946.

[90th Light]

Hi guys,

Leroy, thanks very much for providing this info, it is always good to have it written down for future collectors to see and research. I know you have written much of this before, but sometimes it takes a few times of people seeing it for it to fully sink in. Thanks also for clearing up the "salesman board" issue, I think we can ALL now agree that these were put together as "souveneir boards" for the occupation forces.

So if this were the case, do you really think S&L would STOP production once their leftover stock ran out?? In one sentence you say that doing anything to glorify the swastika was forbidden, but then it is somewhat contradictory to say that these boards were being sold as souveniers after the war. I can totally see these boards being put together from leftover stock, but when that ran out, NO ONE would be the wiser if S&L pumped out a few more batches and just continued to sell the boards. Selling to souvenier hungry GIs was probably just as lucrative a business as selling to the German Government. Given the fact that it was also probably the only source of income a badge producer could have in immediately after the war, why is it hard to believe they continued to produce in 1946, 1947, 1949, etc? If you agree with that, then who would know if S&L sold something that was made in April of 1945 or October of 1945?? No one can possibly know the difference.

You say that one of these boards was in a British officers effects and he came back "apparently soon after the war". How soon? Was it in 1945, 1946 or 1949?? When you talk to vets 60 years after the war, things can all run together IMO.

Tom

Tom you need to read up on this period. The factories were no longer under the control of the Germans in late 1945, 46 and into 47. They were the spoils of war for the allies. They belonged to the allies and they were devided between the allies. They could only start up again with allied permission under allied supervision. Essential industries had priority.

The history of Volkswagon is a classic example. This factory was offered to the Americans who laughed at it and said it was not a real car and would not work . They said bulldoze the factory but the Russians said no and asked if the boundaries could be adjusted so they could have it. At that stage the British said they would take it over, get it up and running to provide cars for Germans. That factory was not placed back fully into German control until the early 1950's.

If you owned a badge making factory like S&L or Deumer then it would not have been possible to crank up in late 45, 46 & 47 to make Nazi badges because the factory would have been under British control, management and supervision. They would have seen any one who made Nazi badges at that time as a die-hard for the Werewolf resistance movement. Keep in mind also that they were not sure exactly what had happened to Hitler at that stage and were on their guard for a Nazis countermeasures against the occupation.

I know for a fact however that many shops and factories had hidden what ever they could to try and hold on to it so a lot of stock and items were stashed at that time but to start making them again was a different story esp. for a factory which really now wanted to be seen as not being a real suppoerter of the Nazis in the hope of getting Allied contracts.

The British soldiers also had to be very careful. To have German badges in your possession could be a court-martial offence if someone further up in rank wanted to make an issue of it. This is based on British military law which has strict rules against looting or taking things from prisoners. Of couse it went on but it was always "hush/ hush" Many British and Allied servicemen were surprised by the American policy of openly allowing their soldiers to do this. In fact many felt that the American government encouraged it and would even post them for you. A British or Allied soldier on the other hand would have to smuggle badges back home and not get caught. My point is that this would not have been an open market in the British zone but instead a black market with penalties depending on how the officers above you saw it. ( I do not know what the Russians official policy was but I can imagine that Nazi badges may not have been the greatest thing to have in your house during a Stalin purge or an NKVD vist "Not politically correct", in fact this is where we get the term from in our societies today ).

Tough times for all, Chris

[Winston]

....Swaz werent banned until late 50ies or so....also an interesting link
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=klietmann

[90th Light]

ALLIED CONTROL COUNCIL DIRECTIVE No 30, BERLIN, SEPTEMBER 3 1946.

" On and after the effective date of this Directive, the planning, designing, erection, installation, posting or other display of any momument, memorial, poster, statue, edifice, street or highway marker, emblem, tablet, or insignia which tends to preserve and keep alive the German military tradition, to revive militarism or to commemorate the Nazi party, or which is of such a nature as to glorify incidents of war, and the functioning of military museums and exhibitions, and the erection, installation or posting or other display on a building or other structure of any of the same, will be prohibited and declared illegal; also the reopening of military museums and exhibitions.

Every existing monument, poster, statue, edifice, street or highway name marker, emblem, tablet or insignia, of a type the planning, designing, erection, installation, posting or other display of which is prohibited by this Directive must be completely destroyed and liquidated by 1 January 1947; also all miltary museums and exhabitions must be closed and liquidated by 1 January 1947 throughout entire German territory."

There is more in this Directive about items of architectural value and the role of German authorities but I think we get the idea that it would be very difficult to be trying to do an honest days work in a German factory re-making Nazi or even Wehrmacht awards from September 1946 onwards and into the early 1950's.

Hope this might be of interest, Chris

[Steve P]

Guys, Having started this thread I want to say thank you so far to all contibutors as I am following it closely and finding it extremely eduational. I also commend you al on the objective and civil manner in which the debate has been conducted...Please continue guys. Respect!