Retired Pilot's Badge - Question

[ebony]

6 The two most commonly encountered hinges on later zinc flight badges by Deumer

[ebony]

7 These oblong plates have a way of turning up on badges that you would not always expect to have one. Here we see it on an "RS" badge which is a vet bring back from Italy 1945. Taken off a prisoner who was a Croatian Navy member.

[ebony]

8 Juncker liked that hinge and oblong plate hook too

[ebony]

9

[ebony]

10 Now here is the small hinge which Tom feels is post war, I have it on several badges. The WB is an "L/11" so what is to stop Deumer from sweating this on to an oblong plate like they did with the longer version on their zinc aircrew badges. Late war of course when parts were getting tough to get or may be when the hinge shown here is sweated on to an oblong plate it is one made up post war out of left over parts from the war by Deumer employees who applied that approach to putting a hinge on a flight badge for better adhesion to the zinc base .

[ebony]

11 Finally those "file marks" which one can sometimes see on Deumer badges with a flat back. Here we see it on an issued and repaired MS by Deumer and an unissued MS by them.

[ebony]

12 Close up of the issued example. Look hard because they are plated over but they are there when one holds this badge in hand. Bit hard to take a picture of.

[ebony]

13 More apparent on the unissued example so why not on a Retired pilot badge ? Of course the plating fills them in quite a bit. I wonder if the Retired Pilot badge which Tom showed in post 66 is a work in progress which has been finished off for a sample board in 1945 ?

[Thomas Durante]

10 Now here is the small hinge which Tom feels is post war, I have it on several badges. The WB is an "L/11" so what is to stop Deumer from sweating this on to an oblong plate like they did with the longer version on their zinc aircrew badges.

Hi guys,

No, no Ebony, you are misunderstanding me. I have no problems with the badges you show in post #110, but if you look closely, you will see they are NOT the same hinge we are discussing here! Here are some good pics of a typical '57 hinge, which is also the same type found with the small oblong plate. This hinge is found on 57 badges commonly, and also on the L/58-marked reproduction I posted earlier.

This is different than the small hinges we find on wartime Deumer badges.

As for the oblong plate under the catch, I don't really have a problem with that because it was definately used by S&L & Juncker during the war. Deumer is not known to have used it on any badge I can think of offhand.

Tom

Tom

[90th Light]

Hi guys,

No, no Ebony, you are misunderstanding me. I have no problems with the badges you show in post #110, but if you look closely, you will see they are NOT the same hinge we are discussing here! Here are some good pics of a typical '57 hinge, which is also the same type found with the small oblong plate. This hinge is found on 57 badges commonly, and also on the L/58-marked reproduction I posted earlier.

This is different than the small hinges we find on wartime Deumer badges.

As for the oblong plate under the catch, I don't really have a problem with that because it was definately used by S&L & Juncker during the war. Deumer is not known to have used it on any badge I can think of offhand.

Tom

Tom

Hello Tom,

this "57" type hinge you show is not what is on my "L/11" retired pilot badge or Leroy's "L/11" retired pilot badge. Leroy's hinge is what is pictured in post 99 & post 101 which is a pre May 45 type of hinge.

I agree that the oblong catch is unusual on my "L/11" retired pilot badge but Deumer did use oblong plates on their hinges, look at post 104 & post 105 so they had them in stock sometimes. Also the oblong plate on an "RS" badge is even more unusual than a Deumer but there it is in post 107 and this badge has a beyond doubt veteran connection. In fact this "RS" example proves they were using what they could get at the time and oddities can occur for some makers.

Regards, Chris

[Leroy]

Tom,
I sent you a PM last night because in re-reading this thread, I felt I may have missed something, or misunderstood something, in your comments about hinges. Thanks for your clarification and to make sure I now understand: you have no problem with this hinge type as appears on my badge, is that correct?

[Thomas Durante]

Hello Tom,

this "57" type hinge you show is not what is on my "L/11" retired pilot badge or Leroy's "L/11" retired pilot badge. Leroy's hinge is what is pictured in post 99 & post 101 which is a pre May 45 type of hinge.

Hi Chris,

Yes, I agree 100%. However, my point was that your type of "L/11" retired pilot badge can also be found with 57 hardware and also with spurious maker marks such as L58. That is what raises a red flag to me, but I can also understand your position that some of these might have been made late in the war, then the same dies were used to make them post war with 57 hardware.

Leroy, I did get your PM and I appreciate it. I went to bed before responding to you, sorry about that. Busy finishing up the Para book and time just gets away from me. Anyway, you are correct, I have no problem with the barrel hinge you just posted, typical wartime type used by many makers such as S&L, Juncker, Assmann, etc.

Tom

[Leroy]

Thanks, Tom! Very glad to have cleared up my misunderstanding.

Really looking forward to the Para book. (I need more bookshelves!)

[90th Light]

Hi Chris,

Yes, I agree 100%. However, my point was that your type of "L/11" retired pilot badge can also be found with 57 hardware and also with spurious maker marks such as L58. That is what raises a red flag to me, but I can also understand your position that some of these might have been made late in the war, then the same dies were used to make them post war with 57 hardware.

Leroy, I did get your PM and I appreciate it. I went to bed before responding to you, sorry about that. Busy finishing up the Para book and time just gets away from me. Anyway, you are correct, I have no problem with the barrel hinge you just posted, typical wartime type used by many makers such as S&L, Juncker, Assmann, etc.

Tom

Hello again Tom.

well I think we might just have a break through here and have answered what Steve P asked by starting this thread. "Was there more than one maker of the Retired Pilot Badge or was Juncker the only maker ?"

From all that has been discussed it would appear that there was later in the war a zinc version of the retired pilots badge marked "L/11". These are the pre-May 45 examples which could have been awarded but in other cases are found on "salesmen sample boards" at the end of the war. (My badge and Leroy's are examples of this and there may also be unmarked examples)

The possible makers of this badge is "Deumer" and possibly "S&L"

There is also a strong case that the badge was again produced by some firm which had the dies after the war ended and this is most likely S&L in the 1950's who probably adapted the die to make the 57 version.

When a collector is trying to decide about one of these zinc "L/11", "chicken leg" type retired pilots badge then the key is the type of hinge and hook found on the badge plus of course what it is made of and its overall finish.

Do you agree with this Tom or is there something I have missed,

Chris

[Thomas Durante]

From all that has been discussed it would appear that there was later in the war a zinc version of the retired pilots badge marked "L/11". These are the pre-May 45 examples

Do you agree with this Tom or is there something I have missed,

Hi Chris,

I think this is a VERY big leap to make. Actually, I think you can also say the exact opposite of this based on the information provided:

1. The L11 mark found on these does NOT match other wartime L11 marks. (if you disagree with this, please post closeups of the mark and the exact same one found on ANY other wartime Deumer badge. I think you will be hard pressed to find one)

2. Deumer is not known to have used an oblong catchplate and/or a flatwire catch on ANY Luftwaffe badge (and even any Army or Kriegs badges)

3. The vast majority of Deumer LW badges are early products made with high quality alloys and excellent quality (Pilot, PO, Observer, Para, etc.). Deumer was only active late in the war with the AG and ROAGs, so chances are very slim that they would also dabble in making such a rare badge as the Retired Pilots Badge very late in the war. With the ROAGs, they had a precedent of making them early in the war, and then continued after the switch to zinc. There is NO precedent for Deumer making the Retired Pilot badge early in the war, so that is even more strange that they would all of a sudden be chosen to start up production on a new badge IMO.

4. The hinge and catch can be found on original wartime badges, but the same type of hardware can ALSO be found on fakes, so this arguement can go both ways IMO.

5. Exact same type of badge can be found with questionable 1957 hardware. Sure these can be fakes of an original badge, but without dimensions of both types, how can we be sure they are not all 1 and the same exact fake??

6. Exact same type of badge can be found with reproduction maker marks such as L58, a known fake maker mark.

7. No example has been confirmed 100% to have come directly from the vets hands, nor has one ever been found ground dug.

So, there are good points and bad points for the possibility of these badges being wartime. I am not condemning these badges, but clearly there are still some questions that can be raised about these zinc badges IMO. In my opinion, with the information we currently have, it can go either way.

Tom