Retired Pilot's Badge - Question

[Steve P]

Guys, I want to test a hypothesis here and ask for confirmation and opinions on the Retired Pilot's Badge...just to see if there is any dissenting view.

Proposition - Juncker was definitively the only firm that produced the Luftwaffe Retired Pilot's Badge...Yes?

[Winston]

Just my opinion.....to me there was only Juncker and I actually just like one version of this badge.As far as I understand there is a number of some 400 awards floating around based on the numbering system of the LW.Plus awardees could have chosen to keep their original flight badge if they did not want the commerative bird.So why would there be any need for various makers......

[Steve P]

Thanks for your response Winston...That's indeed a stunning bird! Do you have a picture of the reverse that you can put up mate?

[Don D.]

As far as I understand there is a number of some 400 awards floating around based on the numbering system of the LW.Plus awardees could have chosen to keep their original flight badge if they did not want the commerative bird.So why would there be any need for various makers......

There are other awards out there that had a limitted distro but have several makers, such as the LCTB. Some manufacturers made the full array of WW1 awards (or nearly so) for private purchase. I don't see why they would all change this practice unless the law was changed to prevent them from doing it. Being a full service manufacturer was a prestigious thing.

[Steve P]

There are other awards out there that had a limitted distro but have several makers, such as the LCTB. Some manufacturers made the full array of WW1 awards (or nearly so) for private purchase. I don't see why they would all change this practice unless the law was changed to prevent them from doing it. Being a full service manufacturer was a prestigious thing.

Don, so are you saying that there were more makers than Juncker, or likely more makers, or there are definitely more known makers ? Sorry to be a pedant mate...

[spectre]

Juncker is the only legitimate mark I have every seen on one of these badges and the only one I would consider.

Alan

[Winston]

Don,
I can see the reasoning behind your thoughts.I must admit to know too little to be fully able to argue here,but I consider the findings of Stijn David on the glider badge as maybe equivalent circumstances to support the Juncker thought.Fascinating thing for me about this badge is that there is so little known for sure about it.

Steve,
here is the reverse...

[Gary B]

Just my opinion.....to me there was only Juncker and I actually just like one version of this badge.As far as I understand there is a number of some 400 awards floating around based on the numbering system of the LW.Plus awardees could have chosen to keep their original flight badge if they did not want the commerative bird.So why would there be any need for various makers......

Dear Winston,

The one you picture here is the 2nd pattern. The first pattern, also made by Juncker, has thinner legs and the feathering detail is less pronounced. The 2nd pattern can be easily recognized by the thicker legs, feather detail which runs the whole length of the bird and the slight indentation on the eagle's breast. The badges were produced in tombak, aluminum (extremely rare) and zinc.

I believe Juncker was the only manufaturer of this badge.

Gary B

[Leroy]

There are other awards out there that had a limitted distro but have several makers, such as the LCTB. Some manufacturers made the full array of WW1 awards (or nearly so) for private purchase. I don't see why they would all change this practice unless the law was changed to prevent them from doing it. Being a full service manufacturer was a prestigious thing.

I believe Don is 100% on the mark here.

Almost without question, Juncker had the contract to supply the government (Luftwaffe) with the badges it used for award. That certainly does not mean that other companies didn't manufacture this badge. In fact, very many companies made badges and decorations, and even after the institution of the LDO, many companies were "fully licensed" in this field. Certainly many more than just Juncker. This was a significant business during the Third Reich.

Stijn's feeling about the Glider badge are supported by his multiple encounters with glider pilots, who all had only Juncker or BSW pieces (occasionally the strange "large eagle" badge). This must be tempered, however, by the acknowledgement that these pilots had been able, amazingly enough, to retain their originally awarded pieces. This, then, speaks very well for Juncker and BSW having had the contracts with the government for issue pieces, but says nothing at all about those companies being the only ones to manufacture the glider badge.

It is believed that, at some point (possibly in mid- to-late 1941, although no one has been able to find a copy of the order, and no one knows how rigorously it was enforced) Hermann Goring issued a directive that Luftwaffe qualification and combat badges could only be purchased through the LVA. This directive, however, was rescinded (and a copy of the recission HAS been found) in October, 1944, and at the same time a pricing schedule was disseminated within the industry via the publication "Deutsche Uniformen-Zeitschrift". This pricing schedule included BOTH the Glider badge and the Retired Pilot badge, either of which could be purchased (in a case) for RM 5.80. Given the dates of their institution and the varying stages of badge manufacture during the war, it would not be unheard of, at all, to find either the Glider or Retired Pilot by makers other than Juncker (or Juncker/BSW) in either tombak or zink.

[Lubo]

The badges were produced in tombak, aluminum (extremely rare) and zinc.

Gary B

Hey guys, I couldn't help myself but jump into this, with a question
Yes it makes sense to think that they were also produced in ZINC, but HAS ANYONE SEEN ONE IN ZINC SO FAR????????????????????????
Or maybe there is somebody out there to make my day and post a picture of this badge?!?

[Leroy]

I have seen one, in zink, by Deumer, but I do not have a photo.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Leroy, do you have a copy of the order from October 1944? I thought the only info we had was from the small article in Uniformen-markt from January 1945, but it doesn't mention an exact date of October 1944.

Thanks

Tom

[Leroy]

Tom,
The "recission" order has been shown within the last year and also may appear on a page in one of the books published by Dietrich (B&D Publishing) (maybe the Flak or Ground Combat). The "publication" date may have been in January, 1945, but the order was known to be coming in the trade and the pricelist was in the November, 1944 publication of "Deutsche Uniformen-Zeitschrift".
Best,
Leroy

[Leroy]

Here's the "recission" notice, published in January, 1945 (preceded by the pricelist in November, 1944). To date, no one (not even Frank Heukemes, who first discussed it years ago) has found a copy of the original "LVA exclusivity" notice.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Leroy,

Yes, that is the article I have a copy of too, but its from from January 1945. Mentions nothing about October 1944, so what makes you think the order came in October?

I may be wrong on this, but I think that LDO pricelist from November 1944 was only for miniatures, not full size awards. This pricelist is in Frank's GAB book, page 372 and includes Knights crosses and oakleaves. These were forbidden to be sold privately after 1941, so I am certain the pricelist only concerned miniatures. Is there another one you are referring to?

Thanks

Tom