Luftwaffe Glider Pilots Badge

[90th Light]

Hello again Thomas,

I take your point but in this case I am not giving an opinion I am reporting the situation I found my self in where I brought one of these badges in question from a veteran.

If I had to stand up in court and was asked, "did you buy this ball hinge glider badge from this veteran on this particular day"

I would not answer, "in my opinion I did buy that badge"

they would say in such a case that they were not interested in opinions, they were interested in facts so I either did or I did not and a simple yes or no answer would do so "yes I did buy a ball hinge glider badge from a veteran who was at the war and stated to me in all honesty that he brought the badge back from the war"

There is no opinion from me about this needed, I am providing evidence of a fact to the forum.

If I am rubbing people up the wrong way then I most certainly apologise but I too have to do a lot of professional research and I work with some of the most qualified researchers in their fields in the world. I am very use to receiving and having to give critical analysis. It goes with the territory and if any research can not stand up to it then what does it say about the research and the quality of the research let alone the conclusion being made from it.

You are right, none of us know it all but the more we share the more we all learn and that is my intention so again I repeat my apology to you or anyone else here feeling up set but I have a duty with this to be as honest as I can to get to the facts of the matter.

Stijn's research certainly shows that none of the glider pilots who he interviewed got the ball hinge glider. A surprising finding for me but an important and revealing one for sure. This however does not prove that they were not made before May 1945 or stocked but it might imply that the awarding of the ball hinge glider was a rare occurance.

Without more information what more could one take out of this ?

With respect, Chris

[Thomas Durante]

Stijn's research certainly shows that none of the glider pilots who he interviewed got the ball hinge glider. A surprising finding for me but an important and revealing one for sure. This however does not prove that they were not made before May 1945 or stocked but it might imply that the awarding of the ball hinge glider was a rare occurance.

Hi Chris,

Agree 100% with your statement here! Those are the facts and that is the best we can do. Stijn didn't find one ball hinge glider among all the vets he interviewed, that is a fact. But it doesn't mean they weren't made pre-1945.

Tom

[90th Light]

Hi Chris,

Agree 100% with your statement here! Those are the facts and that is the best we can do. Stijn didn't find one ball hinge glider among all the vets he interviewed, that is a fact. But it doesn't mean they weren't made pre-1945.

Tom

I agree too Tom,

and Stijn has been a real gentleman to discuss this with on the forum as you have been yourself and others so again if I am being too direct in my findings or observations I apologise.

Never my intention to up-set you guys, far from it but I want to make sure we are getting all the facts and taking a balanced approach to all possibilities with those facts as we try to come to conclusion about the ball hinged glider plus encourage others to report what they have found.

At the end of the day it is important for all who collect this stuff that we get it right when we say "good" or "bad" on the forum.

Best regards, Chris

[Stijn David]

ball hinge glider

Hello,


About the characteristics of the sample where i base my opinion on i can easely say the following:

* where all glider units representative? nope and stating such is madness in its own. There where only 2 glider schools (Erg. Gr.(S) 1 and Erg.Gr.(S) 2 and in the early stages of the war also woth units such as the KGzBV 1, LLG1 etc.... where a pilot could be trained. After one did complete training you where transferred (or did stay at the school) towards a certain unit. So in case where glider pilots from all glider schools representative, yes. Then look at active frontline units (quite a few did only exist for a few months), did i had the honour to speak with a vet of each unit? don't think so. approx. 80 % of the units was covered.

But glider badges could only be earned at a glider school as said before. Ah yes, and glider training started before 1940 as you might know, and yes persons who where there where also intervieuwed.



*Do we have a selection of ranks: yes certainly as the lowest rank a soldier could earn a glider badge was Flieger, the highest rank encountered so far of a person who did get the glider badge was Hauptmann. But read correctly that was the rank they did held when the badge was awarded. Afetrwards they could easely have rose a rank, etc....

* Do we have a spectrum of age groups? Yes certainly as the oldest one i have intervieuwed was from the birth year 1895 (he was a Olt. when he did earn his glider badge) and the youngest i have ever intervieuwed was from the year 1926. So i do personally think that all age groups who could have earned this badge where present. And just for your information: most glider pilots where from the birthyears arround 1920.

* Did i get a time spectrum of activity (in waryears). Yes certainly as there where veterans intervieuwed who where there at the very first glider mission (Eben Emael) towards persons who saw action at some of the very last operations (Breslau and Berlin)

* Where there persons from the north, west, east, southeast, etc... from Germany. Yes, even from Austria, Spain, the Netherlands, etc.... you name it. But in this i do not see what that has to do with representativity? people do change there living place etc....

About the completeness of study as you name it? What study is ever complete? We where not there? We can only report from what is left during the period we have done research. Approx. 50 % off all trained glider pilots did not survive the war? quite a few lost everything during the war, quite a few are simply no longer interested in the past (because it caused to much pain, etc.....) so how representative can one ever work? and this is to say for all researchers.

And in this case, please go on and i will be happy to answer. But i personally do think that it is not quite interesting to try to break down my research in a way. It might be more rewarding in getting a positive open mind and you have also a big task in that. For example go out in the field and go on with your research and believe.

In that way i do mean track down more allied veterans who where also there and see what you find. And then publish about it. (just a possibility offcoarse)

Should i reply on threads about the glider badge? mayby yes and mayby not. Yes certainly i will always reply but as Thomas does state. I will always say IMHO. Not to be polite but because in most cases what we say is a opinion based upon facts we have encountered, things we have read, etc...

And can others be influenced because i write down something? yes probably but in this hobby it is always the same. This can be reversed offcoarse. It is not a certificate of originality that is important, or a opinion from god knows who. It is with what are you comfortable and in what you believe.

So now lets lets return towards the actual ball hinge glider badge. Facts are:

* Some of you have goten it from a allied vet. (and you believe in them)
* I have never encountered one with a german glider veteran or from his family when he was deceased. (i believe in the things i have found so far from my visits so far and what i have seen pop up here and there)

Only a small list of things we encountered above offcoarse but put very simple.

In that way we all stand as far as we can at this point. Each with our own believe and as far as the stand of research in this field (read the glider pilots and the glider pilot badge) i do still not think it is needed to rewrite anything.

Please also note, that NO glider badges where ever more awarded after september 1944. That is a fact (as many other things) so one should be aware of that. Where the ball hinges ever awarded? At this point nothing does point into that direction. Are they wartime? Who will say? i can't because no clear evidence (and we all are limited) of proof of that can be found. To many questions unsolved IMHO to say it is this or that way in the ball hinge glider case.

And all this is just my opinion offcoarse and with the upmost respect for everybodu's opinion and belief

[Leroy]

Just to toss in a few more variables....

Here is a photo of one of the "sample boards" assembled in Ludenscheid immediately after the war for sale or barter to Allied troops. These boards contained a mixture of finished and unfinished pieces, with the only common feature being that ALL badges which could be positively identified by knowledgeable people here (Tom Durante, etc.) were made solely by Ludenscheid manufacturers. There are several pieces not seen before. These boards, in my opinion, offer a valuable insight into some of the things which were certainly in existence before war's end, but which do not match "recognized" pieces.

[Stepdale]

Guys,
A most interesting thread. I am by no means knowledgeable on glider badges, but would ask you to take a look at this thread by Pavel: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hlight=scholze

It does show the possibility of Scholze in Gablonz making badges for makers in other parts of Germany, so there could be a possibility of AS making these under contract to Juncker. No definite proof of this, but just trying to lay out what could be a possibility of some of these being made in Gablonz very late in the war.
Dale

[Thomas Durante]

Excellent synopsis Stijn, thanks for that!

Tom

[Stijn David]

ball hinge glider

Hello Leroy


Thanks for showing that sample board. The glide rshown on that board has the typical look of a BSW product.

Is there a way of seeing the reverse of the badge? What material is it made off?


Cordial greetings,

[Spagg199th]

Hi Chris,

Agree 100% with your statement here! Those are the facts and that is the best we can do. Stijn didn't find one ball hinge glider among all the vets he interviewed, that is a fact. But it doesn't mean they weren't made pre-1945.

Tom

Tom, I agree with that 100%.....I can't tell you how much I have learned from this thread that I started!! Just a wealth of info out there.

Sal

[Leroy]

Hi, Stijn,
It DOES have the "look" of a BSW (although the head seems a bit different) but it was sold by "emedals" (Barry Turk/ with expertise by Detlev Niemann)(who, you would think, would know a BSW when he saw it) as an unidentified maker as part of the entire "sample board". Same for the Retired Pilot. Unfortunately, no reverse was shown, as the badges were still pinned to the board. To me, these boards (and there were several, with awards from all branches) are very interesting as being illustrative of what existed in the stockrooms in Ludenscheid at the end of the war. To add to the confusion, there was an Anti-Partisan badge on another board which no one had seen before, as well as a Spanish Cross in Gold with down-tail eagles!

I remain convinced that your research is perfectly valid and that the great bulk (if not all) actually awarded Glider badges came, by contract with the Luftwaffe (which controlled distribution until November, 1944) from Juncker and BSW. As I recall from earlier posts, the pilots you interviewed still had their original award badges or "official" replacements, did they not? The ball-hinge Glider, however, remains, in my view, a late wartime produced badge which was available for private purchase. The only question remaining to me is whether any of these were actually acquired and worn. Is that conjecture? Certainly, but it is conjecture firmly based in authentic badge construction techniques, supported, if only as an afterthought, by Allied vet acquistion.

Hopefully, as with many things, some photograph will surface to answer the question of whether these were actually worn. In the meantime, there is nothing about these badges which indicates postwar manufacture. "Not awarded" does NOT mean "not manufactured".
Regards,
Leroy

[Terry OToole]

thak you guys for such an absorbing and fascinating thread

[Spagg199th]

I just came accross this in the collection, not sure what it is? Looks like a Luftwaffe patch. Anything to do with gliders?

Sal

[Spagg199th]

Blueish gray in color.

[Leroy]

Glider proficiency badge often found on LW uniforms, but arising from quasi-military civilian glider training. Comes in configuarations of 1, 2 and 3 gulls, then 3 gulls surrounded by oakleaf border. Sometimes seen in wear with the LW Glider pilot badge.

[Spagg199th]

Glider proficiency badge often found on LW uniforms, but arising from quasi-military civilian glider training. Comes in configuarations of 1, 2 and 3 gulls, then 3 gulls surrounded by oakleaf border.

This came out of the same collection as the Glider Badge. Does this make you wonder, that just maybe the Vets Son was telling me the truth!! Awfully coincidental
that we have a Glider Pilots badge and this Glider patch brought back by the same vet??? Just maybe this PILOT BADGE WITH THE BALL HINGE IS REALY A GOOD ONE????? IMO I believe this is a good indication that everything including the Glider Pilots badge is authentic!

Sal