Juncker PO badge FINISH

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

I'm posting this for a friend. I do not have the badge in my possesion nor have I physically handled it. The images are posted with the approval of the owner.

I have no problems with the badge itself - die characteristics, measurements and weight are all in line with known original 1st Pattern Juncker Pilot/PO badges. The maker mark, although faint on the right hand side, appears to be good, as does the hinge/pin/catch construction. The rivets aren't clear enough to comment on.

The question is in regard to the FINISH. Do those with knowledge and experience on the subject believe that the gold/silver finish is original to the badge? All comments will be appreciated, and I would hope for comments from those in the LW case study group.

I have my own opinion but will withhold that to avoid biasing the question. I will draw people's attention to the colour of the main pin though as a start.

Regards
Mike K

[Gene]

Look at it very closely, if you can get the chance. I have a friend who polished the eagle and wreath on his GWL pilot's badge (don't ask me why) and it looked like a pilot observer badge when he was done.

[Peter B]

Opinions appreciated

I would appreciate any opinions on this Juncker pilot/observer badge. Thanks.

[Jos L C]

Hello Mike,
I don't have any trouble with the badge,but IMHO
it's not a P/O but a upgraded common Pilotbadge.
It appears to me that the pin has a gold color too.
It also appears that it has some blueish color left between the eagle and wreath.
There's also some silver shining through the gold at the back of the wreath,early P/O's have a very tough layer of gold.
Many badges has become P/O's that way,also be careful with zinc "painted" P/O's.

Regards,
Jos.

[Rich G]

Mike

I'm with Jos and Gene,

I think the badge is OK but was once a pilot's badge that has been polished and cleaned until the original finish has been removed.

It would seem this has been intentional as I've never seen a badge with that amount of wear before.

Regards

Rich

[Yuri D.]

There are several questions that I would like to ask about this CE Juncker badge:

1. Why is the definition on the silhuette of the eagle's wings and tail so sharp and defined?

2. On the right arm of the swastika, what is that outcropping of metal toward the top?

3. Why is the hole between the eagle's legs shaped so irregularly?

4. The other tombak CE Juncker Pilot and Pilot/Observer badges that I have seen have standard domed rivets with a defined flat plateau on top of them. It looks like these rivets do not have this feature from the picture.

5. What's up with both the hinge and pin being gold in color?

Yuri

[Mike Kenny]

Hi Yuri,

Jos summed up my thoughts above - I too think it is a genuine badge that has been refinished. As someone else pointed out in a personal correspondence though, exactly when it was refinished is another matter. However the absence of wear to the hinge/pin to me indicate that it was not a period (pre-45) re-finish.

Yuri, I think your points 1, 2 and 3 can be explained by hand finishing variations (even the "burr" on the swastika imo which I certainly noticed). Point 4 is a good one which I had also noticed but I'm not sure if the images are good enough to show what the true story is here, hence my comment in the first post. The different looking rivets may indicate that the badge has been taken apart but this is by no means certain. Point 5 was the thing that got me thinking and which started the thread in the first place!

Regards
Mike K

[Kevin Sienkiewicz]

More Photos

Here are some more photos of the above mentioned badge.
Hopefully this shows the rivets with enough detail to pass further comment.
Also, note the small black "thing" between the eagle and the wreath in photo 2.

<br>
<img src="http://www.coreyssite.com/po01.jpg" width="571" height="600">
<br>
<img src="http://www.coreyssite.com/po02.jpg" width="498" height="600">
<br>
<img src="http://www.coreyssite.com/po03.jpg" width="514" height="600">
<br>
<img src="http://www.coreyssite.com/po04.jpg" width="548" height="600">
<br>
<img src="http://www.coreyssite.com/po05.jpg" width="450" height="600"> <br>

I look forward to the feedback.

Cheers and Roo
Kevin S

[Mike Kenny]

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for posting the additional pics and being willing to have the badge subjected to close scrutiny.

I have no idea what the "black thing" is between the eagle and wreath. ? a metal filing, ? solder or ? fibrous material that can be removed?

The close-up shot of the hinge appears to show a blued finish beneath the gold on the base of the pin and on the central segment of the hinge - this supports the badge having been refinished.

The rivet images are interesting. Up close, they don't really look like Juncker rivets - similar shape but something isn't quite right. On image po03.jpg, the rivet looks like it has a slot in it - making me think the rivet is actually a screw which has had the head reshaped and the slot partially filled in. If the badge has been apart and screwed back together though, I don't know why the dark finish wasn't removed from underneath the eagle where the eagle sits on the wreath (the "black thing" image - the dark blue-black finish still appears to be intact in this region.
Alternately, and assuming that the badge has been at least partially separated which I think is likely, only one rivet has been broken/removed and the eagle was rotated around with the other rivet still mainly intact and the original finish of most of the eagle was "stripped" in that position. Looking at image po02.jpg more carefully, this actaully makes some sense as the shape of the dark area matches the outside profile of the wreath if the eagle had been rotated around that rivet (the reverse right hand rivet I think) 180 degrees. I hope this makes some sense - easy for me to visualise/conceptualise but more difficult to describe.

The fine scratching/scoring apparent on the reverse of the badge may be indicative of sanding or buffing prior to being refinished.

The silver halo around the rivets is strange, although it appears that the rivet tops have also been gilded. The dull tombak bronze colour I'm used to seeing on Juncker rivets does not seem to be present in any case.

Personally I think the additional images add more strength to the badge being refinished than being in original condition.

Regards
Mike K

[mmiller]

Base metal

What were these early CEJs and C.E.JUNCKERs made from. I know the eagle should be made from Tombak, as is (at least) visible on the rivet heads.

But what about the wreath. I know that many early wreaths were also made from Tombak. My question....Were any early Juncker wreaths made from nickel-silver, and then plated gold?

Thanks,
Mark

[Mike Kenny]

Hi Mark,

I have 2 early Juncker Pilot's Badges. One marked "CEJ", the other marked "C.E.Juncker Berlin SW". Both have nickel-silver eagles and nickel silver wreaths. These are well worn examples with no trace of tombak on the eagle or wreath. The pins are nickel silver, the hinges and rivets are tonbak/bronze (both catches are period repaired but I think tombak catches were mainly used).

I do not believe the eagle SHOULD be made from tombak although later examples certainly were. The rivets were applied separately and were not integral with the eagle as far as I know. Hence you can find nickel silver badges with tombak rivets.

If you can look under the wing where the eagle is attached, you should see a small "mound" into which the rivet sits. It's quite possible that a small hole was drilled into the back of the eagle as well however this is only speculation on my part. The rivets are set in this mound - whether by solder or being crimped in I do not know (I haven't taken one of my badges apart to find out!!). The rivet attaching process appears similar to that used for the numbered assault badges - eg if you recall, later war JFS numbered assault badges use what appear to be nickel silver rivets for an otherwise zinc badge.

I can't answer your last question as the Juncker PO badges I've seen appeared to be fire gilded rather than plated with a gold colour. Both of my pilot's badge wreaths show the remains of Juncker's silver frosting rather than a silver plate.

Regards
Mike K

[Mark S.]

Can someone clear something up for me?

I thought first pattern Pilot Observers (Pilot badges too?) were marked CEJ and the second pattern were marked C E JUNCKER BERLIN.

Am I mistaken?

Also, in regards to this badge, whats with the lateral striations (that machined look) across the back of the wreath? For some reason this has been bothering me. Is this normal?

[Mike Kenny]

Hi Mark,

The CEJ marking is only found on the first pattern however first patterns were also marked with the full C.E.Juncker Berlin SW logo - the same marking as on second pattern badges.

As indicated above, I think the fine scoring/scratching/striations in this case may be indicative of sanding/polishing/buffing. Striations can be found on genuine first pattern Junckers, however I've only seen them on the reverse of the eagle and even then they are oriented subvertically, ie from the top of the eagle to the bottom, not from left to right. The striations are not all parallel but within 10 degrees or so on either side of vertical, producing a slightly "radial" pattern.

Regards
Mike K

[Mark S.]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Mike, appreciate it!

[Rich G]

Mark

Just for you, here is an early 1st pattern Pilot badge marked C.E.Juncker Berlin SW. This is how the badge in question would have looked before some a-hole stripped it bear!moremad





Rich