The "JMME" is a full match to your stamp, as well as the whole eagle (inclusive these scratches in the side) Yes it´s a small dent. The hinge and the catch are different, i don´t know why.
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Alex,
Here's another shot. The catch does not bother me that much as I believe it's just flattened a bit and perhaps somewhere it got filed-maybe to stop snagging??
The hinge, rivets and those weld-splatter type spots are where I would really be looking at IMO.
Tim
Alex,
Any signs of cracks or fissures in the wreath? I see some on the edge in the catch close up. What about the rest of the badge? Any cast lines apparent on the inside edges?Last edited by Tim Ball; 01-31-2009, 07:42 PM.Comment
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Hi Tim,
there are no signs of a casting on this badge. It doesn´t look and doesn´t feel like a casting. If you need more shots or 1600 dpi scans, please tell me.Comment
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Alex,
Here's the front of mine and though the badge PIC is bright here, you can make out small fissures in the wreath from the stress-related pressures when making the badge.
Does your badge have these?
TimComment
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Alex,
Well, never heard back on this. IMO, if the wreath shows some die fissures, then I would say the badge is good.
What do we got so far:
- Known maker that utilized parts by another known maker. JMME used Juncker parts. Now, the hinge & rivets look more Juncker than JMME, but when evaluating everything else...is it that big of a deal really?
- Eagle and wreath match known Juncker (J2) original die characteristics.
- JMME maker's mark is identical you say.
- Eagle is really dark. Okay is it reblued? Did someone take it off the wreath, reblue it and then remount it? I don't see signs of any repair or rework, but you have it in hand.
You could try cleaning it with some form of dip or cleaning solution to see if the blue comes off. I have a method I have used in the past that I appleid to a Juncker Radio Op/Air Gunner badge that had a really dark eagle on it and I suspected had been reblued. The cleaning took the modern bluing off and back to the original bluing underneath, but I don't give that method out as it tends to restore badges to near mint condition and I could only imagine how many "mint" badges we would be seeing on all the dealer sites and estand sales and the prices!!Oh MY
My 2 cents anyway.
TimComment
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Alex,
Here's a two year old PIC of one of Detlev's past sales. You can see its the same as yours except it has the hardware normally seen with the JMME stamps. Note the darkened bird.
TimComment
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Hi Tim,
Well, I think what we are looking at is a Juncker-made Pilot badge. Notice the hinge and rivets are typical Juncker, not like JMME at all. That tells me this is something that was produced by Juncker, but then sold to JMME.
However, the problem I have with the blueing is that the rivets are also deep blue. That is quite inconsistent with Juncker production, their rivetting process totally removed the eagle bluing, leaving only the copper color of the rivet heads. That fact coupled with the fact that the blueing is VERY blue, unlike originals makes me think it is a refinished original. Notice the big holes around each rivet, I believe these were somehow gouged out and removed for the refinishing. Larges holes around the rivets are inconsistent with Juncker construction.
In addition, the questionable silver finish is very much like that found on Staegemeirs refinished badges.
The catch looks OK to me, but I have seen VERY few Juncker badges where there was absolutely no trace of tombak showing through the finish. Look how beat up it is, and yet NO trace of tombak showing through. Another clue that this is refinished IMO.
TomIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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FIX these damn database errors for crying out loud! Three in a row!
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Alright Tom, lets try this again...
No arguments on these points you presented. I agree that the possibility this piece has been played with is there. The wreath and eagle are original pieces best I can tell from the PICS. The fissures in the wreath would make me even more comfortable with it in those regards.
As far as the toning of the piece and refinished look. I don't know, I have seen so many badges here that are not depicted in the actual true colors due to various display settings, lighting used in taking the PICS, etc. I think that might apply here as well. I think the piece has been cleaned and that can have effects on the coloration as well.
Now, has the eagle been removed and reblued? Very possible and perhaps probable due to the coloration of the rivet heads. This is one of those instances where I personally would like to have the badge in hand with a good loop and time to really look it over. The rivet holes don't bother me as I have seen this before on other original badges too. Did this sort of thing happen from time to time when lining up pieces and then the hole was widened to fit the bird?? I don't know.
I do not like the spotting on the reverse; still can't figure out exactly what it is or what caused it but that part bothers me because it don't belong. IF these badges were susceptible to mold, then I would have it all over my badges up here in Washington, but obviously there not.
So, what is it? Is it splatter from some welding/brazing technique or splatter from blueing die??? I can't tell without looping it.
What IF, and I am trying to re-form my thoughts after losing them here for the third time due to database errors.
...
Somewhere a Juncker (J2) pilot badge with a denazified eagle had the eagle removed and then another (J2) bird was put on to replace it, but it had the JMME marking. That might explain why we see this particular mix-match of parts. Did the guy blue the silver bird to cover up the swap? I just don't know at this point. Probably this badge has passed through too many hands at this point to really know the truth.
Best,
Tim now...let's try this one again.
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finally!Comment
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Thank you very much for your help on this badge Thomas and Tim. I still have a lot to learn, but don't feel too bad about being confused with this one.
WolfgangComment
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I'd tend to agree w/Tim on this since JMME's tended to be bare anyways why not just leave it as bare silver?? It's not a true Juncker where they all the ones I've ever seen left the factory with a blued finished. Just a thought.Comment
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Hi guys,
Here is a refinished JFS, straight from Staegemeir's own website. I am certain it is an original JFS clasp, but was clearly refinished. Notice the same odd scorch marks on the reverse as the pilot badge that started this thread.
Tom
p.s., Tim, I am glad you were able to finally post It is frustrating when you get the white screen of death, hopefully the new server will fix that problem
If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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rIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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Hi Tom,
Yes, they appear very similar; still would like to have one in hand with a good loop.
Maybe our friend isn't making enough money anymore fabricating his own versions and is now resorting to enhancing bad conditioned originals?? Well, at least its a start.
TimComment
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