Double marked pilot badge

[Brad McDaniel]

Ok, following this thread and trying to learn. I have a question, maybe a stupid question, but none the less. I have a 25 year service cross award in the box with the maker mark printed tag in the presentation box that says "Paul Meybauer Ordenfabrik Berlin SW 68". Is this the same maker that supposedly made this Pilot badge? Two different companies wouldn't have the same number designation would they?
Like I said, maybe a stupid question, but I'm trying to learn.

[Hansi]

Juncker and Maybauer are two different firms. The SW 68 just means an Area of Berlin.

Hansi

[Brad McDaniel]

Awwwww! See, I learn something everyday on this site!

[savarese29]

Also,

Brad,

Also read the thread I mentioned earlier in this post. I believe it will explain that.

r/ Mike

[mmiller]

Mike,

This is about the best I can get. You guys with eyes that work can sort this out!

Regards

[Larry Lipps]

It looks to me like the IMME is on top, but it's hard to tell.

[Thomas Durante]

Hard to tell, but I also think the IMME is on top of the Juncker mark.

Tom

[Lorenzo Brown]

Here is an enhanced view. Very clearly the "Juncker" mark was applied over the "IMME" mark....BTW...GREAT Picture, Mark!

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Lorenzo,

I guess I am missing it, but can you explain how it is "clear" that the Juncker mark was over the IMME mark?

Thanks

Tom

[Lorenzo Brown]

Hi Tom. The first thing we have to remember is that the maker marks are all indented, so that the outer lines of the marks are flush with the badge surface, and the center portions cut deeper into the the badge.

Looking at this first example, notice how the "C.E." and the protruding arms of the "BE" cut into the "I" and "M" of the "IMME" mark (see the arrows for examples). This could only happen if the "Juncker" mark was applied over a pre-existing "IMME" mark. If the "IMME" had been overlaid on the Juncker mark, those tips of the Juncker mark would have been obliterated.

[Lorenzo Brown]

In this second example, you can see that the "SW 68" portion is almost completely intact. This would not be possible if the "IMME" had been overstamped onto the "Juncker" mark. So it had to be the other way around...the "Juncker" mark was overstamped onto the "IMME" mark.

[Thomas Durante]

Yes Lorenzo, I see it now that you have circled it, especially the CE and BE portion. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Tom

[Jos L C]

To me it looks like the whole punching took place at one time...
It's clear that the IMME mark was done first.., followed by the Juncker..

I do believe these mm were punched into the bare metal and then the eagles were finished, no ?
If not we probably could and would see the tombak peeping through at places..
If both marks have the black finish and the badge is OK this would mean all was done during the war at one time IMO.

Maybe Juncker's nickname was IMME in some kind of forum .. ?


Jos.

[mdj]

interesting points of view and research....

are there more examples for review/references??

Martin

[Tim Calvert]

Nice job Y'alls! I agree that the Juncker 68 mark is over the IMME and IMO that would make the most sense - since the 68 mark is considered a later war mark.

However, Jos does bring up an interesting point.
Jos: "I do believe these mm were punched into the bare metal and then the eagles were finished, no ?
If not we probably could and would see the tombak peeping through at places"

A typical J2 Juncker eagle will have a silver colored plating on the brass base metal, then the darkening is added on top of that. The silver does have a thickness to it.

I was just looking at a couple of typical SW marks and they are very crisp yet dark.
It seems they added the silver, then the hallmark, then the darkening.
There is no tombak color showing through the sides of the hallmark, which does agree with the theory that the darkening was applied after the hallmark.
Also the hallmark is crisp which would not be the case if the silver was added after the mark was applied. Make sense?

So, maybe the 68 was added on top of the IMME, but on the same day?
Possible.

First, do we all agree: The IMME marked badges all appear to be put together by Juncker right? Same Juncker rivets & style, etc.
Where as the JMME badges have their own rivets, hinge, finish etc. Most likely put together by JMME & with their own hallmark.

Let's say the new Juncker 68 stamp just arrived for eventual replacement of the SW mark which is getting a bit soft. Its in the shop but not yet being used.

There is a knock on the door and IMME's Sohn walks in and tells Herr Juncker that the new shop is finished and they no longer need to rely on Juncker to assemble their badges. "Das ist Gut!" says C.E.J. even though he will pull in a few Reichmarks less this month.

C.E. walks upstairs and finds a badge almost done, ready for darkening and already stamped IMME. Realizing the traditional SW mark isn't big enough to fully cover the IMME mark, he goes to his office and grabs the new, bigger 68 hallmark and a hammer and wacks the new Juncker mark over the IMME mark. He plops the badge back on the counter and walks away. No big deal...

...until a bunch of freaks like us discover it and start to obsess.
Eventually one freak comes up with this hair-brain theory (since it's Saturday night and I have nothing better to do), and actually posts this insanity on the internet.