Hole in wreath

[Philippe DB]

Hi Guys

A question for the material and construction specialist.

On one of my luftwaffe buntmetal badges I found something that looks like a hole in the outside wreath. Does anybody noticed this on other buntmetal badges or has an explanation for it.

KR
Philippe

[Sergey]

Hi Guys

A question for the material and construction specialist.

On one of my luftwaffe buntmetal badges I found something that looks like a hole in the outside wreath. Does anybody noticed this on other buntmetal badges or has an explanation for it.

KR
Philippe

Hi Philippe. Usually the parts for LW badges made by casting and I think it is defect of casting.

[Luftm40]

Early badges were never cast! The later badges made from zinc alloys were often die cast, but this involves injecting molten metal into a closed die under pressure and renders a very uniform finish. The die cast badges were then trimmed with heavy cutters. This process is what normally makes the shear marks on a zinc badge. The early badges were die forged. Base metal heated to near molten, then struck with a heavy die. This is how the complex 3D shapes of the early Luft badges were rendered in such detail into such a hard base metal.This process often left little fissures and imperfections in the image, perhaps from uneven cooling. They usually look like little tiny squiggles and folded areas. Sometimes they are barely visible, sometimes quite prominent. From the pic, I think those are just die forging marks, but I would need to see the whole badge.

[Philippe DB]

Thanks Guys,

Andy the badge in question is my buntmetal Juncker luftflak, featured in this thread;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=32198

where we try to get some logic in the different patterns of this badge.

Based upon your explanation above these markes are the most consistant with early die forged badges which in my opion would be one more reason to look at the "non rivet" variant as the first pattern of these badges.

I post some more pictures of cracks, holes and fissures with which this badge seems to be covered.

Thanks in advance for your opinion

KR
Philippe

[Philippe DB]

Wreath fissures

[Philippe DB]

Right Wing tip

[Philippe DB]

More holes & cracks in the outside wreath. Alltough present on almost all my buntmetal Luftwaffe badges I have never seen them in this extend.

[Jody]

Cracks in Wreath

Hello,
I can tell you that cracks are very common in the wreaths of zinc Heer Fallschirmjaeger badges.

Check out my example. I have also seen cracks like these or surface ruptures in several Luftwaffe badges. So that is not odd or a concern for me personally.
Jody

[Mike Pinkus]

Hi
i am going to stir the pot a bit on this one...these Juncker nickel silver badges have bothered me for awhile in the cast vs die struck sense...it is my feeling that these Juncker Flaks were cast....
I know this will ruffle a few feathers but i can come to no other conclusion based on the softness of details that are apparent on these "nickel-silver" pieces and what i can only call other casting marks.
I have the utmost respect of Andy on most topics but i am afraid i disagree on this one.
Everyone is very conscious of the "die strike" vs. cast arguement, however i have an unmarked die struck tomback Junker that is very different from the nickel silver junckers i have seen and ones i have owned.....I believe due to the metal content of these badges it was more economical to cast these than to strike them....
my 2cents worth
mike

http://flakbadges.homestead.com

[Jody]

Juncker Flak

Hi
i am going to stir the pot a bit on this one...these Juncker nickel silver badges have bothered me for awhile in the cast vs die struck sense...it is my feeling that these Juncker Flaks were cast....
I know this will ruffle a few feathers but i can come to no other conclusion based on the softness of details that are apparent on these "nickel-silver" pieces and what i can only call other casting marks.
I have the utmost respect of Andy on most topics but i am afraid i disagree on this one.
Everyone is very conscious of the "die strike" vs. cast arguement, however i have an unmarked die struck tomback Junker that is very different from the nickel silver junckers i have seen and ones i have owned.....I believe due to the metal content of these badges it was more economical to cast these than to strike them....
my 2cents worth
mike

http://flakbadges.homestead.com

Hi Mike,
I agree with you. The crappy detail that these badges have, don't strike me as something being die struck.
Jody

[Philippe DB]

Hi Mike,

Very interesting observation, I think your on to something here. It's apparent that my badge when you compare it to others featured in the above mentioned thread lacks detail. All the details accept for the lower rivets are there but you alsmost need a magnifying glass to see them.

Where would you situated these nickel-silver peaces in a production time frame? Before or after the struck pieces?

KR
Philippe

[Mike Pinkus]

Phillippe
i think that these were probably an early version....they wanted to use a high grade metal and decided casting was the most economical/easiest production method....like i said above i have what i believe is a tombac unmarked juncker that is die struck....i have felt this way about these for along time and i believe it is important that beginning collectors do not take this wrong. Casting generally is a bad sign on a badge but i believe it was used on some badges for various reasons
mike


Hi Mike,

Very interesting observation, I think your on to something here. It's apparent that my badge when you compare it to others featured in the above mentioned thread lacks detail. All the details accept for the lower rivets are there but you alsmost need a magnifying glass to see them.

Where would you situated these nickel-silver peaces in a production time frame? Before or after the struck pieces?

KR
Philippe[/QUOTE]

[Philippe DB]

Hi Mike,

Sounds very plausible to me and personaly I can live with this explanation as a kind of "exception on the general rule" forced upon the maker by the material used.

Thanks

KR
Philippe

[johnrtse]

My personal opinion on the cracks & fissures in the badge are due to the badge being stamped when the metal "ingot" was stating to cool too much. The inside tempurature was still near-molten (and quite ductile), while the surface was starting to cool and was considerably less "impressionable" (or flexible). The maker waited just a little too long before inserting the hot ingot into the die, them stamping it.

Obviously it still passed Quality Control, and was not a problem that the maker envisioned would be a problem 60 years after the badge was made

JMHO,
John