Juncker Flak SW versus SW68

[Philippe DB]

Thanks Guys realy appreciate the extra input

Ok what do we have so far,

I think the most consistent variant seems to be the non rivetted type with the shorter inner feathers on the right wing as posted by John, Rich, Tim, Eric and Jos. Alltough these badges all show the same characteristics I'm under the impression that they were not necessarely made out of the same material or received the same finish. e.g Eric's badge, based upon the pictures posted, seems to be made out of a much harder material than Tim's badge (look at the large crack on the gun base of Tim's badge). Does any of you guys think that your badges is made out of what we call nickel silver. For me a classic example of a nickel silver badge are the early unmarked ball hinge luft flak badges.

The second category IMO are the badges posted by Frank, Skip, Mikael, Brian and Toby (with the exception of the SW68 mark). All rivetted and with long inner feathers. To me these badges all seem to be made out of a softer material and most of them clearly show little fissures and cracks in the wreaths.

The only badge that doesn't fit either of these categories seems to be my badge. This is the only badge which combines the non rivetted cannon with the long feathered eagle. And in general alltough all the details are present has a much softer look.

IMO all the badges poste are orignal and based on what we have so far the evolution could be the following. Earliest type is the non rivetted type, my badge is the transition variant, second pattern eagle was already in use but they had some older wreaths still lying around, than came the rivetted type which always features the new eagle and finaly the used the SW68 mark as found on other later war Juncker badges.

Does this make sence or does anybody has a Juncker Luft Flak that would contradict this theory?

KR
Philippe

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Philippe,

That sounds conclusive to me. Good detective work and thanks to all for the effort.
The only thing that puzzles me still is: why are there no zinc Juncker Flak badges? Any around? I doubt Jucker made them until 1945 in Buntmetall using the 68 mark. So might Toby´s badge be as early as 1943, early 1944?

Cheers, Frank

Cheers, Frank

[TobyR]

Excellent work Philippe - thank you! I can now display my badge with pride and feel no shame at the SW68 mark.

I think your conclusions show an obvious logical progression based on the evidence that we've seen.

Any thoughts on the 'twist' in the swastikas though? How does this relate to the first and second pattern eagles?

All the best,
Toby.

[Philippe DB]

Thanks guys,

@Frank: just guessing here Frank but if you look at the material used on these badges IMO it's not the same matrial as they used on their e.g Pilot badges. Certainly not on my example. Maybe Juncker found some other kind of alloy that they could use untill much later in the war. Personnaly it's my believe that we oversimplify things a little by thinking most of the time only in two categories Buntmetall versus Zink.

@Toby: probably the little twist in the swas arm, that is visible in one way or another on all the badges posted in this thread (except on John's but thats probably a result of the dark background on his pic) is the best way to recognize a genuine badge. The fact that the twist seems to shift all the time IMO is the result of the fact that the eagle was removed from the die by hand. To remove it pressure was maybe not always applied in the same manner and the arm that came out of the die last was twisted just a thiny little bit resulting in the distortion.

KR
Philippe

[mgidhagen]

Unmarked zinker...

There was an unmarked zinc flak discussed as a possible Juncker badge a while ago (Mark Schroeder started the thread); here is the link:
Zink Flak Thread
/Mike G

[Philippe DB]

Hi Mikael,

Difficult to tell, based upon these pics. It would be interesting to see a detailed picture of the eagle to compare the design to the second pattern eagles in this thread.

Alltough the catch is ok for a Juncker the hinge isn't what I would expect to see and by now we already established that that catch was used by many more makers.

Another thing is the hole next to the canon base. Typical for these Juncker Flak badges if you look at all the examples posted above is that it is almost perfectly round. That isn't the case on the one Mark posted.

The general obverse design however looks believable. So if anyone owns what he thinks could be a Juncker Zink Flak badge, please post it in this thread.

KR
Philippe

[J Temple-West]

I wonder, could It be an unmarked Juncker? It matches the one in Marks thread except for the catch... This one Is Zinc,as can be seen from the small amount of 'pest' but the strange thing Is that It's been coated with a dark wash as the grey of the zinc can be seen coming through the wash, in places....

[Philippe DB]

Hi John,

Without a doubt by the same maker as the one posted by Mark in the above mentioned thread.

I wouldn't want to exclude at this stage that it could be Juncker, but anyway if it is, they produced a complete new set of dies for it. In contradiction to the buntmetall badge posted untill now these two badges have rivets al over the canon base.

If Juncker marked there zink heer flak badges you would expect to find one of these marked aswell. As long as we don't find such an example we will probably never know for sure.

KR
Philippe

PS: concerning the dark wash I think that was certainly one way of finishing these badges, just look at the onces posted by Eric and Frank for example. However after seeing Jos's badge I'm not so sure that all badges received that finish. And on the nickel silver ones it realy gets complicated is the dark color just patina on the silver or were these badges originaly also finished in black

[J Temple-West]

You know Philippe, I'm sure that I've read somewhere that 'black' Flaks were produced and worn by members of the H G div.. I must try and find the reference work and confirm this.. I'll let you know what I come up with.. The finish Is definitely a wash of some kind, perhaps finished that way to either show some kind of qualification grade or to simply stop the badge glinting in the light.. Who knows.. I'm sure that someone will come up with an answer..
BTW.. good piece of work, well done...

[Rich G]

I agree, well done Philippe! So we agree, 2 badges, 2 eagles and 2 stamps.

Here's the close up of my eagle as promised.

Rich

[Philippe DB]

Thanks Rich and John

John I think it would realy be interesting if we could find out if an intentional difference in finish was made. Maybe our friends the photo collectors could provide us with some nice pictures of Luft Flak badges on uniforms.

Rich definately a 1 pattern eagle but one that looks like it suffered a littel in the die. There seems to be a double strike to the left upper side of the wing and thats probably the reason why the impression on the inner wings is a little less pronounced than on the other first pattern eagles.

KR
Philippe

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear all,

Regarding finish, we have to be careful before we jump to conclusions.

I am speaking my mind openly here, so I hope nobody is offended. Jos´ badge does look unfinished or as it would have that bright appearance on purpose, but has it always looked that way?
Possibly, but if you dip a Tombak or German Silver badge excessively, that would be the way it looks like. You can see that look on some Luftwaffe collector´s badges, who chose to make their badges look that way. Jos, I am not implying you did this, but I just do not want to rule out that possibility.

There is another remarkable thing about the finish on the badges shown here. I do not know if you noticed so far, my badge has a very special finish. Judging by the way my badge looks up close, especially on the obverse highlights and the reverse and the needle, it seems that badge has never been worn, it is absolutely mint.
I also bought it described like that from Detlev, so let´s assume the finish is original to the badge, at least I could not find any trace why it shouldn´t be.
What´s so special about the finish? Well, it is made with TWO colours, a dark grey base with accents in a silvery tone wash. Whatever silver you see on my badge is NOT the base metal coming through a darker finish, it is ON TOP of the dark finish to give the badge some additional "3D"-accents.

Check out these pics:

[Frank Heukemes]

swaz

[Frank Heukemes]

wreath

[Lorenzo Brown]

Sorry I'm late but I've been tied up lately, but here is a picture of my Juncker Flak. I think it is the "no rivet-short feather" variety.

Great thread, Philippe...these Luft Flak badges are interesting, especially the finishes. I've seen them both in dark and light silver finishes and I believe that they were made both ways. I have a couple of zinkers with a distinct dark finiish applied and a few others with a distinct silver finish.

Regarding my Juncker Flak, I believe it is "nickel-silver". I don't think it is tombak because there is no trace of yellow metal showing at the worn areas. My Juncker Heer Flak badge looks the same way. My guess is that they were a light silver when made, and then oxidized to a dark color over time.

My unmarked flak badge, on the other hand, is made of silver-plated tombak and you can see the underlying brass base at the worn areas.
http://lbmilitaria.homestead.com/fil...flaktombak.jpg