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**Lorenzo Brown** · 08-09-2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by Sebastian Bianchi

If you guys want to see a particular part of it let me know, the pictures are big and I cut them to post here but can crop and focus on any part.

Hi Seba. I would like to see a close-up of the rivets and the catch.
A 3/4 view if possible. Thanx.

**Sebastian Bianchi** · 08-09-2003, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Lorenzo Brown

Hi Seba. I would like to see a close-up of the rivets and the catch.
A 3/4 view if possible. Thanx.

@ Andy - Ok, we should call them "Assmann Eagle" badges

Lorenzo, here is what I have ready, I will take some photos later and add the 3/4 view.

Attached Files

lolo.jpg (51.8 KB, 254 views)

**Luftm40** · 08-09-2003, 01:43 PM

I think it is an important point to explore before we create a new category of Assmann badge. Don't get me wrong...I think Assmann probably had different variations for many of their badges, they were a large and prolific firm..but. I think the best approach would be to study the construction characteristics between a known Assmann and these. Its tough to tell without seeing the pics side by side, but at first glance they look pretty different

**Robert P.** · 08-09-2003, 02:38 PM

Hi again, Guys.
I have studied the eagle on Frank's badge (the first in the thread) and found slight differences as compared to the badge I posted. The talons are a little different as well as the feathers in the eagle's wings. It is my opinion that these two eagles are not from the same die. I agree that it does strongly resemble the Assmann eagle but, is it a known variation? Can we be certain that this is in fact a true Assmann eagle?
I'm in full agreement with Andy in that we need to be certain that the pin assembly and rivets are Assmann typical, if we are assuming Assmann produced this particular badge. The hinge is not typical and the rivets, from what I can see from the photo Seba provided, are not 'spun'. Rather they look hammered. I might be mistaken on the rivets. Clearer photos will help. I have not seen a pin with such a long taper to the end either.
...Just a few of my own observations...

Robert

**Lorenzo Brown** · 08-09-2003, 03:25 PM

Seba- A good, clear close-up of the photogragh of the Dr. wearing the Pilot and Para badges would be good help. From the blow-up of your picture, both badges appear to be the same as in the picture. Certainly not conclusive, but the Para badge in the picture DOES appear to have an oval shaped wreath and the Pilot badge does have the appearance of the Juncker.

Again, the pictures are not clear enough to tell for sure, and the angles of the badges could be distorting....but I see nothing to lead me to believe that the badges in the photogragh are not the same as the badges in your hand.

A good enlargement of the photogragh would be helpful.

Attached Files

paraAsspicearly2a.jpg (11.6 KB, 248 views)

**Sebastian Bianchi** · 08-09-2003, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by Lorenzo Brown

Seba- A good, clear close-up of the photogragh of the Dr. wearing the Pilot and Para badges would be good help. From the blow-up of your picture, both badges appear to be the same as in the picture. Certainly not conclusive, but the Para badge in the picture DOES appear to have an oval shaped wreath and the Pilot badge does have the appearance of the Juncker.

Again, the pictures are not clear enough to tell for sure, and the angles of the badges could be distorting....but I see nothing to lead me to believe that the badges in the photogragh are not the same as the badges in your hand.

A good enlargement of the photogragh would be helpful.

This is about as close as my scanner will do.

Attached Files

1.jpg (20.4 KB, 245 views)

**Frank Heukemes** · 08-09-2003, 03:51 PM

IMO, he is probably wearing a different pilot´s badge (look at the left wingtip, cleary different to a Juncker, looking more like another Assmann), but the para is that Assmann.

Cheers, Frank

**Sebastian Bianchi** · 08-09-2003, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Frank H

IMO, he is probably wearing a different pilot´s badge (look at the left wingtip, cleary different to a Juncker, looking more like another Assmann), but the para is that Assmann.

Cheers, Frank

Actually, it does a little better (just had to fiddle with it)

Attached Files

Image6.jpg (39.7 KB, 241 views)

**Frank Heukemes** · 08-09-2003, 04:06 PM

picture to make clear what i said. It COULD be an Assmann, just as an example, but surely not that Juncker.

Cheers, Frank

**ERIC S.** · 08-09-2003, 05:12 PM

Hi Guys,
I can't say much here about the Para Badge because it is the first I've seen with a wreath such as that. I do back up Roberts observation that the questioned Para eagle is slightly different in the fletching and the talons. Earlier Die?? Perhaps. I have to honest here, but MY biggest reservations here with the badge is that hinge - it looks (not saying it is) like the style I've seen numerous times on bogus Luft badges and not what I'm used to seeing on Assmann products. Does someone know this hinge as a style of Assmann?
ERIC

**Frank Heukemes** · 08-10-2003, 03:54 AM

Dear Eric,

No, because it is kind of a first for us all. What should be really convincing is that the para badge in the photograph is indeed what seems to be an Assmann eagle on an egg-shaped wreath.

I know it is hard to place logic within a faker´s mind, but what sense would it make if you are so good as a faker that you can come up with a really beautiful, detailed Assmann-style eagle and then decide to combine it with an extremely odd wreath that everybody would doubt the second he sees it?

Cheers, Frank

**Mike Kenny** · 08-10-2003, 06:50 AM

Hi,

Frank, just a note on your last comment re "faker's logic" (my following comment has no reflection either way on the authenticity of Seba's badge). The dip wreath repros use very well cast eagles from various genuine makers badges but the fakers then marked eg a Juncker para eagle with another maker's mark (eg BSW) and, to top it all off, stuck them all on the same easily identifiable wreath! There is definitely major precendent for unfathomable faker's logic!!

Regards
Mike K

PS: I slightly reworded my original post as I see it could have been taken a different way. Just to doubly clarify, I'm not commenting on Seba's badge either way (nor doubting his source or the provenance of the grouping), just stating that fakers DO make glaring mistakes!

**Sebastian Bianchi** · 08-10-2003, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by Mike K

Hi,

Frank, just a note on your last comment re "faker's logic" - it has no reflection either way on the authenticity of Seba's badge. The dip wreath repros use very well cast eagles from various genuine makers badges but the fakers then marked eg a Juncker para eagle with another maker's mark (eg BSW) and, to top it all off, stuck them all on the same easily identifiable wreath! There is definitely major precendent for unfathomable faker's logic!!

Regards
Mike K

I suppose that for the record, I am convinced that this badge is period. Not only is the eagle an Assmann, he is wearing the badge with the wreath in the picture (I also I have a letter of authenticity from the Dr. Mallison's daughter, if that matters). I suppose none of these is 100% (what is?), they should add certain credibility to the badge and my eyes they do.

I am happy to have it in my collection.

**Lorenzo Brown** · 08-10-2003, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by Sebastian Bianchi

I suppose that for the record, I am convinced that this badge is period. Not only is the eagle an Assmann, he is wearing the badge with the wreath in the picture (I also I have a letter of authenticity from the Dr. Mallison's daughter, if that matters). I suppose none of these is 100% (what is?), they should add certain credibility to the badge and my eyes they do.

I am happy to have it in my collection.

Well, I am not altogether impartial in this matter because I do happen to own the same "oval-shaped" wreath badge as Seba shows here. However, I have studied the badge closely and believe it to be authentic. Seba's documentation and photogragh have only strengthened my conviction.

I think that authenticity is the primary concern...the "maker" is secondary. But I think that the maker was Assmann and I don't see any major differences in the eagle that would cause one to feel differently. All of the major strike and detail characteristics are the same on the badges shown in this thread. Look closely ....even the feather quills and fletching are the same. Although they probably did not come out of the same die, I think that the dies were made from the same master, differences in wear, finishing, camera angle and lighting, notwithstanding.

Obviously the wreath, hinge and rivets are different....THAT is the point of this thread! Assmann et al made badges from 1935 thru 1944 and went through production changes as did other makers during that ten year period.
http://lbmilitaria.homestead.com/files/Paraasscomp4.jpg

**Luftm40** · 08-10-2003, 11:38 AM

Not to beat a dead horse, but if the wreath, construction and now eagle details differ from an Assmann badge, why are we still considering it to be one? Using that logic, any unmarked badge could be attribted to any maker

Originally posted by Lorenzo Brown

Well, I am not altogether impartial in this matter because I do happen to own the same "oval-shaped" wreath badge as Seba shows here. However, I have studied the badge closely and believe it to be authentic. Seba's documentation and photogragh have only strengthened my conviction.

I think that authenticity is the primary concern...the "maker" is secondary. But I think that the maker was Assmann and I don't see any major differences in the eagle that would cause one to feel differently. All of the major strike and detail characteristics are the same on the badges shown in this thread. Look closely ....even the feather quills and fletching are the same. Although they probably did not come out of the same die, I think that the dies were made from the same master, differences in wear, finishing, camera angle and lighting, notwithstanding.

Obviously the wreath, hinge and rivets are different....THAT is the point of this thread! Assmann et al made badges from 1935 thru 1944 and went through production changes as did other makers during that ten year period.
http://lbmilitaria.homestead.com/files/Paraasscomp4.jpg

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